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In this episode of The Turn On, Erica and Kenrya talk to Khadijah about the joys of being a sugar baby, the importance of loving your work and losing the last of your fucks.
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information.
Kenrya: Come here, get off.
Kenrya: Today we're talking to Khadijah, pronouns she and her. Khadijah's a 25-year-old mom, entrepreneur, self-proclaimed "It girl" and sugar baby. Khadijah, thanks so much for joining us today.
Khadijah: You're so welcome. Happy to be here.
Erica: Well, I am glad that you joined us. So, Khadijah, last week's book that we read was about a young woman that decided to start sugaring when she ran into some tight times at work.
Erica: So, how did you get into sugaring?
Khadijah: So, sugaring found me actually. So, at the time I'm a junior, no, sophomore in college. And you know what? This really, planted a seed for me. This dude was like, "You are pretty enough to get your rent paid." That started that for me. And it's like, "You know what? Maybe I am."
Kenrya: You were like, "I am."
Kenrya: Not maybe. I am.
Khadijah: So, then fast-forward a few months, I meet this guy, well, also, he's actually my friend's godfather. So, we're all in college at this time and he has this huge house, he's very well off. This was my first sugar daddy. So, I met him through my friend and he would just be all over me, like I really want to take you out, all this stuff, I'll pay you and mind you, this is my first, really first interaction with this. And so, one day I'm just like, you know what? Let's go out. We already hang out for free because we be all in his house. We were all living in the dorms, so. And that's pretty much how it started. I let my friend's godfather take me out and I've already been into older guys, so this man, he was in his 40s and so that wasn't an issue for me. So, yeah. Not anything too exciting, but...
Erica: Girl, it's exciting.
Khadijah: ...That's how it started.
Erica: It's more exciting than some of our lives, so.
Khadijah: I would say, because with it, people don't believe me when I say men give me money. I know it's the trend and all, the City Girls and all that, but people don't believe me. And then men that I'm not especially interested in, I'll go ahead and tell them I use men for their money. And they be laughing and stuff, but I'm serious.
Kenrya: You like, "But no, really though."
Khadijah: Really though. Where's the check? Yeah. So, that's my life.
Kenrya: All right. What do you like best about that work?
Khadijah: What do I like best about? I'm sorry?
Khadijah: Sugaring? Well, so I'm a people person anyway. So, I like just meeting new people. I like just the experiences and education that sugaring has afforded me. So, most of the men that I speak to they are older, they have a lot of life experience, they're successful in their businesses, they're just in places that I want to be. So, I've just learned a lot as far as investing, my own business, things like that. So, really I would say my self improvement through sugaring is my favorite.
Erica: What do you like least about it?
Khadijah: What do I what?
Erica: What do you like least about sugaring?
Khadijah: Like least? Sometimes they're annoying, but I think it's just men anyway.
Erica: Yeah. If you have a penis.
Khadijah: Like relationships anyway. Sometimes, you just don't want to be bothered, just honestly. So, a few months ago I had multiple sugar daddies and I was feeling like I'm kind of over it because it is still a relationship and I was just not feeling relationship-ish. So, I did. I actually just, I ghosted one of my sugar daddy's and the other one we just separated amicably. He still actually hooked me up, asked me how I'm doing and stuff, but we're just not in that relationship anymore. So, right now I just have one. So, I would say the thing I like least is just sometimes you just don't want to be a girlfriend right then. Yeah, so.
Kenrya: That's real and it actually leads to the next question that we have. So, we asked you to come on because last week we read a book called "My Billionaire Benefactor" and it follows this woman Imani when she starts sugaring and she really quickly, like her second date, meets this man who her homegirl calls her whale, like the man who's going to take her out the game and make her his woman and all this.
Khadijah: What is the name of this book, guys?
Kenrya: It's called "My Billionaire Benefactor."
Khadijah: I think I have to read it.
Kenrya: It's good.
Khadijah: "My Billionaire Benefactor." Okay. Thank you.
Erica: And it's a part of a series, so yeah.
Kenrya: Yeah. And so she meets the "whale" as her chick calls her and he's supposed to take her out of the game. Is that a thing?
Khadijah: He wants to what? Is what a thing?
Kenrya: He wants to get her out the game and take care of her and pay her bills and her homegirl is like, "That's the holy grail. That's what everybody looking for." But you just said, you get tired of pretending to be somebody's girlfriend. Like is that a thing though? Is that something that people are really aspired that you know, who are sugaring, are really aspiring to?
Khadijah: I will say yes because you know what? I would love for that to happen to me right now. Let me quit my job, let me chill out a little bit. And I do hear of girls, especially my stripper friends, they'll be like, "He's just like, he wants to save me. So, he's going to save me" and a lot of them do. It's men out here taking care of women and their families. This one girl, her sugar daddy bought her mom a new car. So, that's definitely, yeah, that's what I'm working on right now. But I would say also, so, is that true? Do you get tired of the life? What I've started though in college, I was a little more, I didn't care. You know?
Khadijah: But now, my sugar daddies, I make sure I like them. So, it's not an act all the time. I make sure now, I make sure it's someone that I really enjoy spending time with and talking to and things like that. So, that does make it better because before I was just entertaining, older men, they really do just want certain type of company. And then especially if they're in a certain class, they just really do want certain type of company. So, but I was being whatever company that they wanted. I'm studying you, I hear you, I'm understanding what you like and I was just being that. Whereas now, I'm more just being myself.
Khadijah: Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Erica: One of the things that we reiterate a lot on this show is the older you get, the less fucks you give. And you just explain that.
Khadijah: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Erica: You're like, "I gave lots of fucks when I was younger, now that I'm a little older, I have less fucks to give. So you're going to get, what I give."
Khadijah: Yeah. You right. I used to care, "Oh, what is he thinking about me? I don't want him to stop liking me." Now, if you're over me, peace out.
Erica: I love it. I love it.
Khadijah: Yeah, so.
Erica: And I wish that I was your age and had that. So, that's dope.
Khadijah: Thank you.
Erica: So, we opened up our last episode kind of explaining that there's so many forms of sex work, not just... People think of sex work and I think of stripping or escorting and so-
Khadijah: And you know what? Before this year, I never thought of sugaring as sex work, but you know, it kind of is.
Erica: Here we are.
Khadijah: It kind of is. Yeah.
Erica: So, have you done anything else or are you comfortable sharing? Have you done any other forms?
Khadijah: Okay. So, I mostly do... I am a sugar baby. I don't know. I wouldn't consider bottle girls sex work, but I do strip. I have experience stripping. I'm getting into the phone sex operating. Actually, after we get off, I'm going to probably go on live for the first time tonight.
Kenrya: Good luck.
Khadijah: Yes, thanks guys. But besides that, no, not really. But like I said, I didn't even think of sugaring as sex work before this year. And I think a part of that is I also was not having sex with my sugar daddies in college, but now I am more open to that, so.
Kenrya: It makes me wonder, kind of like a culmination of the question of what we've just talked about, how does sugaring impact your intimate relationships and vice versa. How do your intimate relationships impact the way that you sugar and what you're interested in doing and what falls within the lines of how you view your work? Does that make sense?
Khadijah: Yeah. So, again, sugar daddies are relationships. So, in the past, if I actually met someone that I really liked, I will, just like in regular relationships you meet someone you might put most of your attention on that person or whatever, but also now from when I started sugaring I'm more goal oriented. Whereas, it was really just about having fun, just being able to do all these fun things. But now I have a daughter who I'm taking care of and stuff. Again, so my sugar daddies are always people now that I would be in a regular relationship with. It wouldn't have to just be about money, but I'm also becoming hypergamous anyway. So, even my romantic, I wouldn't say my sugar daddies aren't romantic, but my, I guess, traditional relationship, I expect them to be of a certain standard now too. So, really the line is blurring as I'm getting older. Yeah. It's all-
Kenrya: That's real.
Erica: In the story we read Imani's best friend, Farrah, got into the game and got assaulted on her first date. So, what precautions do you think people should take to protect themselves if they want to get into this kind of thing?
Khadijah: Yeah. So, ultimately, I don't look at sugaring... Again, it's a relationship. So, just like with a boyfriend or potential date, potential boyfriend, it's all the same for me. We're going to go somewhere public until I'm comfortable with you, being alone with you. I don't many precautions because we're going to be in public. If I'm feeling iffy about it, I'm going to just leave out and my first date, I'm going to meet you there. I don't want you to pick me up.
Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Khadijah: I just don't think it's any need reason for us to, especially when we're still getting to know each other.
Kenrya: No, that makes total sense. And-
Kenrya: Yeah, I mean when Erica and I date, you know we're best friends and it's like we turn on our location when we go places, so that somebody always knows where we are and always send like this is this nigga's number and his face and his full name. It's just a matter of being smart because you're going to be around people who you don't know that well, that makes total sense to me. Cool.
Kenrya: So, over the weekend you probably saw it, I feel like it all over Twitter, a stripper slipped from the pole and fell almost two stories. Yeah and she broke her jaw and it was bad, but it... One of the things that was interesting-
Khadijah: Wow. So, when I saw the video, when she hit the ground, didn't she start twerking again?
Kenrya: She did. She kept dancing.
Khadijah: I was like, "Dang. Is she all right?" Because this is news to me that she broke something. I was like, "She's got to be hurting." But it's news to me that she broke something.
Kenrya: Yeah, yeah. No, she was like super duper hurt and she had a GoFundMe to raise money because the strip club said that it was not their fault and that they were not taking any responsibility to pay for any of her medical bills. And so, it was interesting because it really sparked this conversation about labor rights and who we offer to protect. Who do we value? And who do we take care of? And I'm wondering if there are things that you can think of that we can all do to be supportive of rights for sex workers? In the past we've talked about how there are online restrictions, they keep people from being able to advertise their services and connect with people. Are there any things that you can think of that everyone who cares could be advocating for in order to be supportive of folks?
Khadijah: Well, so issue is sex work is illegal in places. So, I think that would be something that would have to be conquered before we can talk about healthcare or other rights and things for sex workers, but kind of apart from sex workers, is strippers are considered independent contractors and there's independent contractors in all industry and they don't have health insurance or liability. Yeah, I'm not saying that it's fair. Actually, I'm an independent contractor apart from having danced. So, when I'm doing that, I have to pay for my health insurance. That's just something that I do. I think that in the climate we're in right now, we have to think about ourselves, put ourselves first. So, health insurance, make that a priority. As far as advocating for sex workers, we need to get it legalized.
Khadijah: We get legalized, that's where the rights come from, all that. Because I think in her issue, just like with any other job, and strip clubs don't offer workers comp. A lot of jobs don't offer, you know? So, it's just things that we just have to think about. I can't imagine being in that kind of situation honestly.
Khadijah: Because I'm going to tell you right now, I'm not a pole worker. I don't know the tricks, I don't try. Just being closer to the ground I feel like I'm going to hurt myself, so, goodness. Really, all we could do is just support ourselves as women. I'm so happy. I've seen the controversy about people in her fund, but people make GoFundMes for absolutely everything and that is especially something she should've made a GoFundMe for. Your hurt...
Kenrya: You need help.
Khadijah: ...People who support you want to help you, let theme. I don't understand the issue, but yeah.
Khadijah: That's pretty much what I have to say all on that. It's not black and white by any means, but I'll just say to all my ladies, "Protect yourself first just in any industry." They don't care about us. I'm in corporate and I feel like I just experienced pregnancy discrimination, but it's not much I can do. I live at a at will state as well, so they could fire me for anything and be okay with it. Cool. It's not something that I could take to court. So, it's a lot of stuff that we sign up for as people, as women. We just need to be aware, combat that as best we can as well as the advocates for our fellow people and people that we connect with. Honestly, I feel like that's just the best we could do right now.
Erica: So, are there any myths about sex work that you want to dispel?
Khadijah: Myths about sex work.
Erica: I mean, you don't do every type of sex work, so I don't want to make it so general, but just about you said you have experience dancing as well as experience being a sugar baby. So, are there any myths about being a sugar baby or a dancer that you want to expel? Dispel.
Khadijah: Okay. Well, I mean, we're considered hoes, whores, sluts, man it's bad. We're just regular people. Some a little more sexually active then others, some not. It's so many strippers that just dance. It's some strippers that will go do beyond that, but it's very individual. So, really I would say just people should stop the generalizations because, boss. You can't generalize them. Just like one person can be a million different things, these women are, so. But then again, I don't care about getting duds. I mean, honestly call me a ho, slut, whore, my bank account is full.
Khadijah: That's all that matters to me.
Erica: This good whore bank account.
Khadijah: Yes. It feeds my daughter, so I don't care. And I don't think anyone else should either and I think once we stop caring and responding and all that, what can you say to someone that's ignoring you? You know what I'm saying?
Erica: Yeah. So, what resources would you recommend for someone who's interested in sugaring?
Khadijah: Okay. So, it's this book that I was just put onto this year. I think it's a great place to start. I found myself like I did a lot of these organically, but I've also from speaking with who aren't really in the life and stuff, that it's not just natural to think those certain ways or I don't want to say manipulate people because I'm really not. People tell me no, I'm like, "Okay, cool." Someone's going to tell me yes. So, I would say read "Hoe Tactics" that's the name of the book. I think it will stop a lot of time wasting because this was very trial and error. I'm still trial and erroring, but I have found stuff that works. This works.
Khadijah: But I would say it's a lot of books out there to read. Research hypergamy, a lot of women first have to be okay with accepting and receiving. I think that's a lot of people's problem and reasons they aren't getting what they want is because they don't know how to accept it. So, I'll start it looking into hypergamy and then I would read the book, "Hoe Tactics" and not judge hoes because hoe can mean a whole lot of things.
Kenrya: Yes. So, "Hoe Tactics" is by G.L. Lambert, right?
Khadijah: Yep. Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's by a man. How beautiful is that?
Kenrya: Right? And hypergamy basically means the practice of marrying a spouse that's of a higher social class basically? Like "marrying up," quote, unquote.
Khadijah: Yep, pretty much. Yep. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kenrya: Dope. Okay. That's what's up. So, I'm so glad that you were able to join us today. Is there a way for folks who want to learn more about you or connect with you online that you want to share? Your socials or anything like that?
Khadijah: So, I am Aye-dijah on all of my socials, A-Y-E-D-I-J-A-H. So, it's just my regular socials, not attached to anything. I'm pretty much on hiatus from my businesses and stuff right now, but you can always inquire, especially if you want to ask me about sugaring, you want to know about anything of that sort. I really am an open person. I'm really a woman's woman. I love supporting my girls, love supporting my sisters. So, my women out there always feel free to reach out. Yes, ma'am.
Kenrya: That's what's up. Well, thank you so much for joining us this week and thanks to everybody for listening. Bye.
Erica: This episode was produced by us, Erica and Kenrya and edited by B'Lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. We want to hear from y'all, send your book recommendations and all the burning sex and related questions you want us to answer to the TurnOnPodcast@gmail.com. And please subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app, follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram @TheTurnOnPodcast and find links to our books, transcripts, guest info and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com and remember, The Turn On is now part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more shows you'll love at frolic.media/podcast. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you soon. Holla.
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In this episode of The Turn On, Erica and Kenrya read an excerpt from "My Billionaire Benefactor" by Shae Sanders and talk about the sniff test, men in baby suits and sex work.
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information.
Kenrya: Come here. Get off.
Erica: Hey y'all, welcome to this week's episode of The Turn On. This week we are reading “My Billionaire Benefactor,” which is a Candy Girls Book Number 1, written by Shae Sanders in 2019. This one's a little different. We wanted to discuss sex work a bit, and I think so often people just think of sex work as escorting. But there's so many facets to it, one of which is ...
Erica + Kenrya: Sugaring.
Erica: We're going to read a quick excerpt from a book. Then we will come back and chat with you.
Erica: See you on the other side. Sit back, relax, get your wine, your weed, whatever you need and enjoy.
Kenrya: That's a T-shirt.
Erica: Get your wine, your weed, whatever you need.
Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Erica: Merchandise, spring 2020.
Kenrya: I like it.
Kenrya: “My Billionaire Benefactor,” Candy Girls Book 1, by Shae Sanders.
Kenrya: I turn and walk toward the bathroom and he called after me, "Don't keep me waiting too long." I peed and did the sniff test to make sure I was on point. I was still a little tipsy, but that was good. The liquor was keeping me relaxed. I hadn't had sex in over a year and I definitely wanted to please him, and I wanted to feel good. I deserve to feel good. I took a few deep breaths and psyched myself up, "You can do this, you're a bad bitch. Go out there and put it on him." I didn't tell myself to give him his money's worth, but it was in the back of my mind for sure.
Kenrya: I step back out into the bedroom to find it mostly dark, save a few candles shine and lit. How romantic. He was sitting on the edge of the bed staring in my direction. I said nothing as I walked toward him, and his eyes roamed my body like he was starving and I was a whole meal. I reached down and pulled his shirt over his head. Even tipsy and turned on, I still noticed how soft that damn shirt was. It had to be expensive. He placed his hands in his favorite place on my hips and stared up at me. "You sure?" I nodded and gently grabbed his face with both hands. We kissed passionately and he moved his hands to unbutton my jeans. He tried to slide them down but you can't do that with tight ass skinny jeans. I kick myself for not taking them off in the bathroom. But it was too late now. I stepped back and eased my jeans down over my hips. He watched me intently. By the time I was down in just my panties he was practically salivating.
Kenrya: I moved around him and laid down at the head of the bed. He stood, finished undressing, and walked around to the other side. I caught a glimpse of his dick and I try not to panic. "Would that thing even fit? He opened a drawer in his nightstand and pulled out a condom. I watched him unwrap it, pinch the top, and slowly, slowly, slowly roll it down. Like he was teasing me. I could barely stand it anymore. He laid next to me and rolled to face me. "You good?" he said. I nodded and he reached and slid my panties down. I grabbed him and pulled him closer and he rolled on top of me. Just the pressure of his body on mine, the weight of him pressing on to me felt so good. That's the kind of thing you miss when you haven't had sex in a while, the weight of human connection.
Kenrya: I gripped his muscular back and kissed his neck. He tried to work his way in and I squeezed my eyes shut and tried to block out the pain. He finally answered me fully and stopped, resting his forehead against mine. "Are you good?" I asked. "Yeah, he said. "It's just, it's tight down there. I'm not complaining though, trust me." I giggled and caressed his back on my fingernails. He sighed and began to move and I moved my hips in unison. I couldn't believe how good it felt. I moaned in his ear and he moaned in mine and we kissed deeply like we were each other's last meal.
Kenrya: First-time sex can be tricky and awkward, but this was neither. I bit his shoulder as he stroked me and he placed a hand on my throat and squeezed lightly sending me to a place I had never been. Then he stopped abruptly. "What's wrong?" I asked breathlessly. "I'm going to make you come tonight." "That's okay. It might take a while." "I don't care." "I'm fine. It feels good, Shawn." "I know that. Listen, I need you to focus. It ain't going to just sneak up on you like it does for me. Think about whatever turns you on the most." "You." He grinned and kissed me. "Whatever it is, it's the only thing that should be in your head. Can you do that for me?" I nodded. And he started again. Slowly and gently. He kissed me and bit my lip and caressed my tongue with his, and I could feel the pressure building.
Kenrya: I thought about him, about his face, about his money, about his body. But he stroked me slowly and rhythmically and with an incredible amount of patience. I lost track of time but he'd been going for a while when he ducked his head down to lick my nipple. He sucked gently and finally, the pressure gave way and I came, hard. I was so overwhelmed I started crying, happy tears. I hugged him tight as aftershocks pulsed through my body. He kissed me gently on my lips as I came down and when he saw my tears he brushed them away with his fingers. "Don't stop," I said. "Well, I'm just giving you a minute." My arms and legs felt like jelly. Shawn saw my arm trembling and smiled. "Get it together, Imani, you got at least one more round. I'm about to turn that ass over for me."
Kenrya: Well, damn, but I sure did turn my ass over with a quickness. He didn't even warn me. He just slammed right into me. I cried out and he seemed to become another person, one I liked. "Throw that shit back, baby," he growled in my ear. And I obeyed. "Just like that," he said as he thrust in me. "You sexy as fuck, you know that?" I whined my answer. I couldn't have spoken actual words even if I wanted to. "That pussy's so wet, you hear that?" he asked. And I did. And it turned me on even more. Then he had the nerve to grab my hair. He pulled it lightly and I was impressed by his restraint. If I could have I would have grabbed his nearest body part and scratched until it bled. That's how good it felt. Instead, I spoke my pleasure and the louder I moaned, the harder he thrust.
Kenrya: I was on the verge of screaming when he licked my ear and said, "Why were you crying? The dick that good?" "Yes," I cried and he chuckled in my ear. "Yes, what? Don't be shy." "It's good." "Don't fucking play with me. What's good?" The aggression drew to a level of sexual insanity I had never felt before. I would have done anything for him at that moment. I would have said anything or gone anywhere. "The dick is too good. I can't take it." "You will." He slammed into me harder and faster and the sound of our bodies meeting filled the room. "Take this dick." I didn't want it to end but I could tell by his movements that he was losing control. He was close. And I wanted to talk shit too. "Fuck me, Shawn." He groaned and gripped my hips so hard I felt bruised. "Harder. Fuck me. Just like that," I whined. He obliged and not 30 seconds later he was growling in my ear again as he came. I didn't even want him to pull out. A line had been crossed and walls had come down. I'd never taken sex lightly. It's the literal joining of bodies, minds, and souls. Shawn was in me now and I was in him, and that meant something to me. We lay there for a while breathing in sync with each other and I tried to ignore the little voice in my head that told me not to trust it.
Erica: Welcome back, y'all. That was an excerpt from “My Billionaire Benefactor.” So, the reason that I picked, oh, before we get into it. Let's do a quick synopsis of the story.
Erica: So, the story starts off with, what's the main character's name?
Erica: Imani. They call her Mani.
Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Erica: Starts off with Imani. She is a broke college student. But she's a non-traditional college student. It's taken her a while to finish school and she has one more semester left and the book opens with her on her countdown to get her final semester paid. She thinks all she needs is X amount. She's working a little job. Come to find out she needs Y amount.
Kenrya: Yeah, financial aid, she's like maxed out on her financial aid.
Erica: Yeah, she's maxed out on financial aid. So, her co-worker says, "Hey, girl, why don't you try this sugar daddy-sugar baby website." At first, she's like, "Nah. I can't do it." Then she's like, "Maybe I should." Because life happens and she's like, "I need this money. Maybe I should." So, she joins the website. Meets a couple guys. And one of the guys she's sugaring with and it's a typical situation. The other guy, she's sugaring with she actually likes and falls for. And, sexy hijinks ensure, dot, dot, dot?
Kenrya: Yeah. Sure.
Erica: Okay. So, I picked the scene that we have because it opened up with, to what I thought to me, was something was just so universal. She knows they're about to fuck so she goes to the bathroom, she pees, and then she does the sniff test. I fucking died when I read this because I'm like, "Oh, my God. I've done this a million times." What about you?
Kenrya: I haven't. I always go pee. I pee but I don't think I do a sniff test.
Erica: You don't smell your pussy?
Kenrya: Not right before it. She fine.
Erica: I mean because the thing is pussies are like pockets. They're like a warm moist pocket. And, have you ever like left something warm and moist or just something moist.
Erica: Something wet like a pile of wet clothes and then you come back and, you know, like pussies are like that. Not a pile of wet mildewy clothes but because they're warm and they're organic sometimes they have a smell to them.
Kenrya: Yeah, absolutely.
Erica: Now, usually, I've never ever did it and the smell was a deal-breaker. Never. Just because I mean, I ain't going out, I ain't shopping with a pussy that ain't tip-top, it ain't in presentation shape. If a pussy's going out for a spin, it's going to be in presentation shape pussy. But I always do a sniff test. Generally, when I'm doing my pre-sex...I have a pre-sex ritual if it's like a session at home.
Kenrya: What's your pre-sex ritual?
Erica: If I'm at home and I know we're having sex and that kind of thing, usually, I'm shaved. The older I get the less I give a fuck about shaving even if it is a new partner because I'm like, "You grown, we grown." And I keep my coo pappy waxed. But, I'm talking about shaving my legs. It's like, whatever. But, yeah, shaved, maybe not. I always shower and then I always put on deodorant again because I use that natural deodorant and girl-
Kenrya: Fuck, yes.
Erica: ... You know?
Kenrya: Yes, yes, I know. I know. I know.
Erica: I can't be riding a nigga with a funky pit in their face.
Kenrya: I mean you can.
Erica: I can. Because again, like, very rare.
Kenrya: What do you all do and tell you to get up?
Erica: I very rarely have some like deal-breaker. No, I've never had like some deal breaker shit going down. I don't think I have? But anyway, so yeah, it's usually a shower post-sex and that kind of thing. But if we're on a date, "Oh, this shit's good and fun. What's going on?" I always hit up the bathroom. I run a wet paper towel over my pits and my cooch.
Kenrya: I pee. Because I always have to pee. So, better for me to go ahead and do it one last time before.
Erica: Empty the bladder.
Kenrya: Exactly. I think the one thing I do before sex is I shower and I brush my teeth.
Kenrya: Always. In part-
Erica: Because you know being kissed and already got a problem.
Erica: If your teeth ain't fresh or on point.
Kenrya: Yeah. I can't. So, I brush my teeth. You brush your teeth too. And especially, because I don't eat meat, I don't want whatever meats you ate mingling in my mouth and blech. So, no. I wash, shower, and I don't ... I shave my legs maybe four times a year.
Erica: Oh, no.
Kenrya: I'm not super hairy.
Erica: I shave my legs. I like my legs shaved. I really like my pussy waxed because I like the smooth feeling when we're having sex.
Kenrya: Yeah, I haven't done that in a year.
Erica: Oh, I am very regular. But yeah, I like the smooth feeling. But generally, I shave when I want to for whatever. But very rarely am I shaving because I'm about to have sex. You follow?
Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Erica: So, yeah. Okay, well, I thought a sniff test was a universal thing, but, and that's why I hollered, "Readers." I don't know why I keep you calling y'all readers.
Erica: Listeners. If y'all do the sniff test let us know because I thought I was the only woman. Maybe I'm out here just shopping a funky pussy, right?
Kenrya: No, you're not.
Erica: That's a funky pussy I'm shopping.
Kenrya: But it's literally the opposite of that because you're checking.
Erica: I'm shopping an unsure pussy.
Kenrya: Nah, just because I don't do it doesn't mean that everybody else doesn't do it. Maybe I just don't give a fuck.
Erica: Like, "You going to get this pussy whether or not you want it."
Kenrya: Exactly how it is. What I do sniff always is my armpits because I stink. And one of my armpits is like stinkier than the other. The left is just out of fucking pocket.
Erica: So, yeah, I realizing I have a stinkier arm pit and again, this natural deodorant life, it holds off. But don't think...
Kenrya: You can't get all the way to the end of the day.
Erica: Yeah, don't think if you run into me at 10 o'clock and the last application was at 6:00 this morning, you're getting a fresh pit.
Kenrya: Thursday night I went to get into bed. I had on a nightgown. You know, I sleep without it but I had on a nightgown while I was sitting in the bed working with my partner and I took it off and laid down and my head rolled to the left and I said, "Oh, shit." I said, "Smell this." He said, "Girl."
Erica: You told him to smell your stinky pit?
Kenrya: I sure did. He was like, "I'm not going to smell it." I was like, "Nigga, you stick your fingers in there all the time." "But that's my choice. I'm not smelling your pit because you trying to make me smell it." I'm like, "Well, all right." I got up and I washed it because I couldn't even sleep well when it's smelling like that, let alone have sex.
Erica: He like, "Oh, who was that funky ass" I hear this humming. It's coming from my armpits.
Kenrya: It was so bad. I couldn't even get comfortable.
Erica: Another really real moment in this scene was when she had on these tight ass-
Kenrya: The jeans, yeah.
Erica: The jeans. She had on these tight as jeans. Fashion Nova.
Kenrya: Yes. It's all I wear.
Erica: At one point she said, she was like, "One day I'm going to buy some jeans that are thicker than a piece of notebook paper." And I was like, "But they hug your booty so well."
Kenrya: They do. That's what sucks about that article about how Fashion Nova is supposedly unwittingly using third parties that don't pay their people well enough. I mean, fuck.
Erica: You get a suit for $45.00.
Kenrya: Right. How much how can they really be paying people who make that shit?
Kenrya: That sucks.
Erica: But it was such a real moment because there's nothing sexy about-
Kenrya: Trying to struggle out with class and then get them over your foot.
Erica: ... struggle out of some jeans that you had to struggle to get into. Girl, and then getting them over your foot joint?
Erica: That's why also it's hard for me to take serious masculine-presenting men that-
Kenrya: That wear tight jeans?
Erica: That wear really tight jeans.
Kenrya: My partner wears really tight jeans. I like it because I like his booty.
Erica: Mm-mm. If you got to arch your foot to get into pant-
Kenrya: He don't have to arch his foot but they tight enough that I can see all the muscles. I like it.
Erica: Yeah, no, I don't want you to... Can we have a ...
Erica: There's this man in my office building. And he wears baby clothes. Like he wears like toddler clothes. And I get that there's this thing with men wearing fitted clothes. I love a man in some fitted clothes. I love, my typical type is a doughier gentleman. But I'm starting to embrace the slimmer figured man.
Kenrya: Look at you.
Erica: I know. And it just like freaks me out when I see this man wearing these baby clothes.
Kenrya: Is everything just like shrunken?
Erica: Everything is shrunken. Imagine like a suit but then it got like shrunk. So, they're not like the short pants. They're like the motherfucker stopped mid-calf.
Erica: It's like a full pant that's stopped mid-calf. And I saw him, you've seen him in the summer and his shit was like always too super tight. You could see his heart beating through his chest, his nipples, and shit like that. Then I said, "You know what? What is this man going to do in the winter?" I saw this man in the deli the other day and what did he do? What any bad bitch would do. This motherfucker put on tights. He had on these thick-ass dress socks and it was just like, "You look like a fucking fool." Like they are legit baby clothes. It's not like they're short. It's not like it's fitted. No, you have on baby clothes. Then there's this office across the hall from me and there was this whole crew of baby clothed motherfuckers. They all had on these baby clothes and they wear these little soft-assed driving shoes that aren't real and it was cold as shit. And so, I'm like, "I know your foot is getting wet out in that snow and your ankle ain't right." Girl, I can't do it. I can't do it. Like I think that they're-
Kenrya: Yeah, my partner wears those shoes as slippers.
Erica: No, but they have structure. These are more like-
Kenrya: Like a moccasin?
Erica: It's like a moccasin. But it's just like, dude, like, if I wore some shit like that to work I'd be the hoe.
Kenrya: Well, that's interesting.
Erica: But you out here with your titties out, your clavicles and chest out, your cleavage out.
Kenrya: So, is it the double standard of it all that bothers you? Or you just also don't want to see his nipples?
Erica: The motherfucker looks stupid. I would love to see a good nipple. You know, I'm all about titties, especially with my current journey. I love a good looking at titties. But it's just you look stupid. You legit look like you got, you in somebody's like ... Like you wearing some toddler clothes. It's like their wearing a baby suit. Like they went to Macy's and got a baby's suit.
Kenrya: A little baby suit. A confirmation suit, if you will.
Erica: Yeah. Yeah. You got your church suit.
Kenrya: I kind of want to see it.
Erica: I have pictures on my phone.
Kenrya: Oh, okay. I thought you show anyway.
Erica: I literally took pictures and sent it to our Detroit friend because she used to work near me and we would see him together. Golly, where we did end up? Where did we end ... Okay. One of the things she also mentioned in the story was how she felt like how when they were having sex she said he was laying on top of her and she could feel the weight of human connection.
Kenrya: Oh, the weight. Oh.
Erica: And as someone that is a master debater that's so ... That really does-
Kenrya: You're a master debater?
Erica: Yes. As a master debater, yeah. The difference between your master debates and the main show is like when you feel ...
Kenrya: Literally, the connection that other is there, yeah.
Erica: Yeah. That was just a moment.
Kenrya: Yeah. It was like a moment.
Erica: Such a sweet little moment. So, something else that I don't know if y'all picked up on it but earlier in this show, earlier in the book she said that she has never come from sex. And that's why he was talking her through coming. And I love how when he was talking her through coming he was like, "Anything you like, me, money ..."
Kenrya: She said, "I thought about him, his face, his money."
Erica: I'm like, yeah.
Kenrya: Whatever it takes.
Erica: Whatever it takes. And it's kind of okay. So, this is where we're going to open up the discussion about sex work. Because some people, I think, easily look at sugaring as sex work and some people, I think, try to make it not sex work.
Erica: They're like, "Oh, well, he just gives me money." And so, this isn't sex work. And it's like, "But it is."
Kenrya: Well, you're getting paid for something. You're having sex with him and he's giving you money. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just is.
Erica: Noting wrong at all. And some women have sugar daddy's that-
Kenrya: Just want their presence.
Erica: Yeah. They just want their presence. And, you would be surprised at how many men are like that. Like they just really want to like sit and hear your goals and your dreams and you ain't got to have sex. And they will give you money. And men act like they won't. "Oh, that's so stupid." Isn't that what you're doing when you taking these people out on these dates that you know don't really like you? I say it all the time, everybody pay for pussy.
Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Erica: Everybody pay. I saw this meme and it was this dude. He was like, "I get nervous when women give pussy away. "Like damn, you don't want no Wendy's or nothing?" Right? Because it's like my time. Even if it's just I'm paying you with my time, I'm getting something. You're paying something for that pussy. Ruth's Chris, okay, you pay for that pussy. And, again, a wet pussy-
Kenrya: Formalized our agreement.
Erica: A wet pussy and dry pockets just don't match.
Erica: I'm a firm believer that, and as I date now, I tell men all the time, like I have an amazing group of people, amazing group of friends. When I want to feel the weight of a human connection, I masturbate under my weighted blanket. So, yeah, you got to bring something to the table. And, oftentimes, it's gifts and money. But it's not always that. We just ain't going to be fucking around for the sake of fucking around. You need to add value to my life, even if this is just a fuck buddy situation. you know, like make me laugh, motherfucker, dance. Tell a joke, something. You know?
Kenrya: Tell a little jig.
Erica: Yeah, and I think that niggas ain't got no problem asking for pussy.
Kenrya: No. Never.
Erica: They have no problem asking for pussy. So, they shouldn't have a-
Kenrya: Without bringing shit to the table.
Erica: So, I think women shouldn't have any problem asking for money.
Kenrya: I think in general, none of us should have trouble asking for what we want.
Erica: Yeah. And also, I think that it's important for me, I think it says something about a man if he's willing to watch his partner or the person he's with struggle.
Kenrya: Struggle, yeah.
Erica: You know? Like you can't do nothing, like nigga help. Try something. Make a phone call. Do something. You know?
Kenrya: Yeah. I mean that's real. I'm obviously a single mom and I can't say I'm co-parenting or saying, I will say that my daughter has a father. But my partner is adamant about paying for things because he's like, "you have more responsibilities than I do." He's like, "I don't got no kids. If I fuck up it's just me." He was like, "But you got a whole other person you got to pay for. So, why the fuck would I let you pay for something when I got it, and you need to save your money for you and your kid?" And, I respect the fuck out of that. It's hard for me because I have trouble letting people do things for me. But I respect the fuck out of it and appreciate it.
Erica: I think it's hard for me when I actually really really like the person. And it's just like eh.
Kenrya: Right. Because you don't want to feel like you're using them.
Erica: You're using them.
Kenrya: And leaning on them too hard. And then, of course, because we've been conditioned not to need people that makes it difficult. That is something I should work on.
Erica: I definitely appreciate a man that's willing to be like, "Look, I got this. I got you." You kind of touched on this. As a broke college student, did you date niggas that you didn't care about? That you weren't interested in for meals or anything like that?
Kenrya: No. I didn't. I used to be a hardcore serial monogamist which really is just a way of saying you don't like to be alone. So, I went to college with a high school boyfriend who was awful. Broke up with him partway through.
Erica: I rolled my eyes so hard because I've heard stories about this awful high school boyfriend.
Kenrya: Oh, Lord. I broke up with him partway through freshman year, ended up with another nigga sophomore year who was hard to shake through senior year, as hard as I tried. Then ended up with another dude. I just was in relationships the whole time until now.
Erica: Yeah, I totally did as a college student. Totally did as a college student. I don't think that I was necessarily in a formal sugar baby relationship, but most of the men I dated were older and they were all helping out, even it was just give me some money so I can get through the weekend, which now, that I think about it, I'm like, "Shit, I was selling myself short."
Kenrya: A weekend, nigga?
Erica: Yeah, I should have been getting for real money. Because again, they got no problem asking for pussy, dragging my ass out when they want to go somewhere and look good with somebody else on their arm. And I was trying to be nice and coy. But, you know, "Let's go to the movies?" "No. I can't get to know you at the movies. I'd rather get to know you over a date." So, we'd go eat. I love to eat. So, it definitely worked out. What are your thoughts on sugaring?
Kenrya: In general?
Erica: Yeah, just in general.
Kenrya: I don't know. I mean, I think it's a thing.
Erica: It's a thing people do.
Kenrya: Yeah, I don't have any value judgements or shit. Yeah, no, it's a thing. I don't see anything wrong with it. I think we all have to do what we have to do. Or want to do what we want to do.
Erica: Looking back on what you know now, do you think college Kenrya would have sugared if college Kenrya knows what she knows now?
Kenrya: Oh. That's a really good question. Probably not because I didn't have time. I was taking 21 credits a semester like a fucking crazy person. I worked.
Erica: Why were you taking so many fucking credits? It's not like you got three degrees.
Kenrya: I had a double minor and then I was working at that PR firm constantly. Then I pledged. And I was a chief of staff for an office. I just did everything.
Kenrya: I barely had time for the niggas that I was in relationships with. But maybe I would have had to work less if I had a nigga giving me some money, in hindsight.
Erica: Yeah. Like I'm just like, damn you was doing a whole lot. I mean like I couldn't eat through college.
Kenrya: See, I've been working since I was 14.
Erica: I didn't know you in college. When my child goes off to school, I'm going to be like, "Get there and do the bare minimum." I mean I hate to sound like a-
Kenrya: Focus on your school and have fun.
Erica: Have fun. Get to know your classmates. Don't be in there like fucking off and not graduating but that whole like burning yourself out, double majoring and all that shit, you still got a degree just like the rest of us.
Kenrya: Yeah, but that's deeper for me, right? I got all this perfectionism stuff.
Erica: No, right. That's why I'm like, Kenrya now.
Kenrya: Oh. I would like to say, yes, but I don't know that that's true. I still work a lot. I still am a workaholic. Even though, I try to not be a perfectionist it is still in me. I work really hard to keep that from being, I do a much better at keeping my daughter from embodying that because I see it her and have to pull her back from it. But I was the type that if I got less than all A's I was crying and going to see my teacher and fucking trying to fight.
Erica: Well, we'll revisit this question in a year because we going to have to work some of that down.
Kenrya: Yeah. It is better now than it was for sure. But part of that I think I convinced myself that it was a necessity, right? I didn't have a whole lot of money growing up. I had wanted to go to college. I knew that we didn't have the money and my father didn't have the credit for me to be able to finance it in any kind of way on my own and so, I had to be valedictorian so that I could get scholarships. You know, what I mean? Then I got to college and I felt like I needed to be the best because I needed to keep my fucking scholarship up. There were all these things that tied into why I felt like I needed to be excellent. But I was never really able to turn it off.
Erica: Well, hopefully, the spirit of Erica grabs hold of you a little bit harder and encourages you to do a whole lot less.
Kenrya: Yeah. I know.
Erica: So, one of the things in the book that Imani's coworker introduced her to the website. And so, Imani was telling her, "Oh, I met this really great guy. He's a billionaire. He's trying to solve all my problems. The problem is I'm starting to like him." Her coworker says something along the lines of, "Girl, get out now. You did well. Get out now because you got your boo, you got the dream. Get out now before you get used to the lifestyle," or something like that. To me, although she showed her, put her on to it, it still showed a little bit of [crosstalk 00:31:58].
Kenrya: That she had some judgment attached to that.
Erica: Yeah, some judgements attached to doing it. Because I was talking to a group of girlfriends last night that are probably a generation older than me, and they were saying how, "Oh, I love your attitude and your generation's attitude when it comes to sex and your bodies, and that kind of thing."
Kenrya: But they don't really. Because remember when I was dating and I told them I was going to have sex with that dude after the second date. And they were like, "Don't do it. It's not going to work."
Erica: Oh, totally. Uh-huh. Yeah. Totally. And I'm like, "No, we're going to fuck."
Kenrya: "You're selling yourself short." I was like, "Bitch, but my pussy wants some attention."
Erica: Period point right. My pussy want some attention. I like this generation following us attitude, especially when it comes to like sex work because I think everyone's more open to it. I think women our age, our group, are a lot more judgmental when it comes to like sex work.
Kenrya: yeah, they are.
Erica: And, it's like, "Girl, again, you sell your pussy for free." Why? I get I'm in a relationship, I love you, yada, yada, yada. But some of y'all just be fucking like some ain't shit niggas just for the sake of it. Like get yours honey.
Kenrya: Yeah, they getting theirs.
Erica: In whatever way you want to. So, I actually really like this generation's attitude when it comes to sex work.
Kenrya: To sex in general, honestly.
Erica: The fact that they are much more creative. Like, we're going to have a dominatrix on for a quickie. And we're going to a deep dive into like-
Kenrya: Financial domination?
Erica: ... domination and financial domination. But I mean, like cam girls and phone sex operators, and bitches selling panties. I just really enjoy seeing people have healthy-
Kenrya: The ingenuity that goes into that.
Erica: Yeah, the ingenuity. They're healthy and safe. And what's wrong if helping somebody explore their kinks and you get a little cash off of it? I would totally sell my big ass drawers. Totally. I remember there was a book we read a long time ago. It was like the vampire, the undead people, and the girl had a girlfriend that every time they would go out she'd buy panties. Then she realized that her girlfriend was like selling her drawers or something?
Kenrya: I have no idea what you're talking about.
Erica: It was one of those quick fluffy books that I-
Kenrya: Well, did they it to the show?
Erica: No, I might of read it on your bookshelf when you were living in New York.
Kenrya: Oh, okay.
Erica: One of those kind of things.
Kenrya: Oh, Undead. The Undead Series.
Kenrya: I fucking love that series.
Erica: I still have them upstairs.
Kenrya: Yeah. You stole a lot of my books. They're so good.
Erica: But yeah, and so, it's just like, "Fuck, yeah." Like I would totally do that shit. And I think part of the reason that a lot of women are hesitant to show their faces and stuff isn't necessarily the shame that they may have about it. They just know it's just a bigger fucking deal.
Kenrya: They don't want to have repercussions.
Erica: I don't want to have to fucking deal with anybody's, listen to somebody, or my mama talking about it, or my father saying-
Kenrya: Or your job. It's all kinds of ways that things, unfortunately, can come back to bite you in the ass. I mean like even doing a show like this it could theoretically, I guess. I don't know, in my job they be talking about it and I'll be like, "Okay."
Erica: Yeah, I definitely told an older Black woman at work. We were talking about it and she said, "I have a toy." I said, "All righty."
Erica: Then I told her about it. Because she, "I love listening to pods." I said, "Well, I'm going to let you listen to a pod."
Kenrya: I love it.
Erica: So, if you're listening-
Erica: ... shout out to you. Okay. So, I think sometimes we think about sex work as like a drug-addicted prostitute on a corner or a group of girls that got shipped in a container from some Southeast Asian country.
Kenrya: Which is a very real thing.
Erica: Yeah. And I think it's a very real thing. And I think that's why it's so important to embrace healthy and consensual sex work because when that happens then it forces out the ... I mean, I'm about to start to a whole dissertation.
Kenrya: It leaves a space for trafficking when we criminalize people finding ways to use their body that is consensual and that is non-detrimental to them.
Kenrya: Yeah, it leaves that space for the shady shit to happen because the people who are ready and willing, their opportunities are being taken away from them whether it be digitally or they're being criminalized in real-time on the streets. And so, then you got people who are able to make a ton of money by taking kids and other people from other countries and taking advantage of folks who are in tough situations and putting them into the trade.
Erica: Kind of like abortion, you know? When you're stuck doing them in a back ally they're all going to be shitty. So, this also, now that we're here talking about this, so, I recently started consuming porn only from like paid sites. So, I'm a subscriber to certain OnlyFan's pages because I think that, I mean first it's cheap as hell. Some people their OnlyFan's be like $5.00 a month or some shit like that. And I usually, like be doing like a month because who wants to look at the same person every single time. But I just think that I've read stories and heard stories about how Pornhub, because even Pornhub has like the verified channel where they have the verified entertainers that get paid for you viewing their page. But that always isn't really correct. From what I understand porn has-
Kenrya: You mean like the money doesn't make it to them?
Erica: Yeah. There's some shady shit that goes on and then like getting that. Then also, oftentimes, non-consensual porn ends up on some of these websites.
Kenrya: Oh, like hidden cams and shit?
Erica: Yeah, hidden cams or some nigga sends in a sex tape. Because just about every amateur ... Well, most of them is like report this if it needs to be taken down. Most of the time it's like, "Oh, shit. I'm looking for porn. There I am." So, I think that there's a lot to be said for people that willingly and consensually just want to record. You know, like engage in sex work and engage in sex acts for money on camera in life. And, we need to embrace that more to make more space for this healthy sex. Girl, I found this man on Twitter. Oh, Twitter's amazing.
Erica: I was reading somewhere or was I talking to someone? It should of, could of been here. Where someone's talking about how any new thing like the internet or books or whatever, once you get sex and art to embrace it-
Kenrya: It pops open.
Erica: ... that's how it actually grows.
Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's what made Tumblr such a big thing and that's why it's nothing anymore because they took all the porn away.
Erica: Tumblr had all the good porn too.
Erica: Oh, thinking about some shit on there this morning, ah, years ago. Anyway, so, yeah, so I have a few OnlyFans pages that I subscribe to, again, because it's like let's let people put out there what they want.
Kenrya: Let's do it.
Erica: And you actually consume it as opposed to you finding a fake sex tape. I've been trying to be so much better at not looking at people's sex tapes that end up on Twitter.
Kenrya: Oh, yeah. I don't look at those.
Erica: I've been trying my best. I was so happy when that one of DaBaby-
Kenrya: It wasn't him?
Erica: Because everybody kept talking about how great it was and I was like, "Don't look at it. Don't look at it." And so, I didn't.
Kenrya: Can't look, can't look. Yeah, I never look at those.
Erica: But then the guy whose dick it was claimed and I said, "Now, I can look."
Kenrya: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's actually the porn star or something star.
Erica: And I was like, "Whoa, that's an impressive dick."
Kenrya: Oh, was it?
Kenrya: I still haven't looked at it.
Erica: It had a hook to it and everything, and you know I love that hook. But yeah, so, I mean I think it all boils down to consent.
Kenrya: And not taking folks livelihoods away from them. I mean, some folks do sex work because they want to. Some folks do, do sex work because they have to. There's a lot out there about the trans community where folks are pushed out of other jobs, and sex work may be the only thing that they're able to do. But then that's criminalized as well. And you're literally taking people's ability to use their own bodies in their own fucking ways that they want to in order to make a way for themselves. So, then what do you want folks to do?
Kenrya: It's maddening.
Erica: Credit card scams.
Kenrya: Right. This shit is maddening.
Erica: Yeah, it's fucked up. Well, again, that all boils down to what? Consent.
Erica: We love it. So, that wraps up this week's episode of The Turn On.
Kenrya: It does.
Erica: So, this is Erica and Killa, two hoe's ...
Erica + Kenrya: Making it clap.
Erica: I tried to snapping.
Kenrya: Did you snap?
Erica: It tried.
Kenrya: It didn't work. Wait, let me try and snap with you.
Erica: My nails are too long. Bye, y'all.
Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme music is from Brazy. We want to hear from y'all. Send your book recommendations and all the burning sex and related questions that you want us to answer to TheTurnOnPodcast@gmail.com. Please subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app, follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod, and Instagram @TheTurnOnPodcast and find links to books, transcripts, guests info, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com. And remember, The Turn On Podcast is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more podcasts that you'll love at Frolic.media/podcasts. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you soon. Bye.
The Turn On
The Turn On is a podcast for Black people who want to get off. To open their minds. To learn. To be part of a community. To show that we love and fuck too, and it doesn't have to be political or scandalous or dirty. Unless we want it to be.