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In this episode of The Turn On, Erica and Kenrya talk to author Katrina Jackson about Black academia, creating what we want to see, the glorious intentionality of polyamorous relationships, writing internal conflict and happy-for-nows, stepping away from grind culture and why history is both fascinating and horny.
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Kenrya: Come here. Get off.
Kenrya: We are happy to be here with y'all and we are very happy because today we are going to be talking to writer Katrina Jackson, pronouns, she and her. Katrina's a college professor by day and she writes erotica, erotic romance, and historical fiction by weekend. She writes racially diverse and queer stories that show love in the world in all its beauty and diversity. Hey, Katrina.
Katrina Jackson: Hi.
Kenrya: Thanks for coming on.
Katrina Jackson: I'm stressed, but all right, I'm here.
Erica: Bitch. Bitch, you should be stressed. You should be happy that we are not in the same room because I would fucking hit you. You wrote your ass off in this book like bitch, I hope you don't mind me calling you bitch.
Kenrya: Let me turn my damn volume down because you done blew out my fucking ears and I can't-
Erica: Bitch. We love all your books, right. “Welcome to Sea Port,” perfect. But this book, girl, we go in and in about it in the last episode about how beautifully you write and how steamy your scenes are. But you just capture it, so.
Kenrya: And it was so cool because I could see your growth. I was like... the writer in me is like, "Oh my God." We love-
Katrina Jackson: I literally...
Kenrya: Yeah. Go ahead.
Katrina Jackson: I told someone that recently that I'm just not the writer I was in like 2015, and that makes me really happy. There are some projects where I see that growth and it's really nice when other people see it too.
Erica: This one was-
Kenrya: When I say I devoured this book, like legit, I think I started it like before bed or like while I was waiting on my partner to get here, and I finished it the next afternoon maybe. Just flew through, didn't want to put it down.
Erica: It took me longer because I kept stopping to masturbate.
Katrina Jackson: Okay. Y'all tell, not like you specifically, but people tell me that all the time about like certain stories and I'm like, "Okay, I'm happy to have-"
Erica: Now, this one. This one I was like, "Oh, this bitch is on fire."
Katrina Jackson: Oh, yay.
Erica: Yeah, so. I call you a bitch in the most loving way possible because bitch-
Katrina Jackson: And I take it as such.
Erica: Bitch you did a good job, bitch. Okay. So thank you for joining us.
Katrina Jackson: Yeah.
Erica: What did little Katrina want to be when she was growing up?
Katrina Jackson: Not broke, honestly.
Kenrya: Listen. That there, right there.
Katrina Jackson: Yeah.
Kenrya: Say less.
Katrina Jackson: Right. Yeah, I grew up very poor. So I wanted to be not broke for sure. And then I wanted to be like, I think, a lot of little Black girls, I wanted to be a lawyer. That seemed like a legit career where you did not have to be broke. And I guess the other is doctor, but I don't like blood or bones and anything like that. So I was like, "I love books. I can do that." And then I also wanted to be a writer, but I thought that, again, like a lot of little Black kids, not even little Black girls, that seems so unattainable and I'm a pretty practical person. Even to this day I'm like, "I don't really understand how writers survive with this kind of environment. I need some kind of security."
Katrina Jackson: So yeah, and then I became a historian later because I realized, one, I don't like tests and lawyering seems like a whole bunch of tests to get to where you need to be. And I also don't like environments that seem needlessly combative, and that's how I understood law school. I had a friend who started law school before I did, and I was like, "Oh, girl. This is your life? What is going on?"
Erica: "Why are we arguing all the damn time?"
Katrina Jackson: Like literally. And I'm an arguer, but even I have my limits. And I was like, "So this is your job, you just..." So, no.
Kenrya: It seems stressful.
Katrina Jackson: It seems very stressful. And so I ended up in grad school, which unfortunately was not that different, but it seemed different on the surface. And then I was like, "Oh, damn. This is just the same thing, but three more years. What?" So, yeah.
Kenrya: Okay. So then how did you come to be a writer?
Katrina Jackson: So I wrote when I was younger. I was definitely a kid... I'm still pretty shy, but I was a very shy kid. So I was really internal, I spent a lot of time by myself. I read and then wrote a lot. And then I wrote horror stories when I was a kid. And then in high school I was very dramatic and wrote a whole bunch of slam poetry, and that was that. And did that into college. And then I just stopped writing when I went to grad school because I think a lot of my friends after college had lives and I just stayed in school. I don't know if that makes sense, but when you go to grad school or like some kind of extended school after-
Kenrya: It's consuming.
Katrina Jackson: It is. And so all of my friends were like getting married and being in relationships and I was at the library, checking out 60 books at a time like, "Can I just come pick these up later?" I wasn't living in the real world, it felt like. And I was working on my master's and hating it, disliking the whole process. My advisor was kind of a mess. I was more than kind of a mess. And so I just started, first of all, reading fan fiction again and then reading erotica again. And then I just started writing my own. And that was like, I don't know, like 2008. And then I've just been writing consistently since then.
Kenrya: All right.
Erica: So who or what inspires you to write?
Katrina Jackson: I mean, there are lots of writers that I have loved and I remember sort of going back to in that moment. I was definitely... I have always read erotica when I should not have been.
Kenrya: Same. Same.
Katrina Jackson: So I definitely remember reading that Anne Rice erotica when I was far too young to be reading any of her books, let alone that series. I had a cousin who was like my gateway to urban fiction and she would just hand me whatever she was reading. So that's how I read my first Zane, and I read Zane very consistently after that. And then, so I think those writers sort of like set in a path for me. And there were other people, I always liked Sista Soulja et cetera.
Katrina Jackson: But I think in terms of my own writing now, I'm a little adversarial in that I will write a book because I don't see anything either like it or with people like me in it, which is definitely where “Looking” came from. But all of my books are sort of like, "Oh, there are all these things that exist in romance or erotica, but there aren't fat Black girls, there aren't Black girls at all, there aren't Black men." And so I am a little adversarial in that I'm just like, "Oh, I don't see it or I can't find it and I've looked. So here is whatever I'm writing now."
Kenrya: Right. I know you were saying earlier, the idea that folks are just out here writing and supporting themselves is still kind of like, "The fuck?" How do you balance your writing with your day job because that's a lot too?
Katrina Jackson: Yeah. I mean, so I say there are like two phases. So certainly before 2019, I was just writing late into the night, early in the morning, in little snatches when I was in a meeting I didn't want to be in, whatever. And I would just kind of fit it wherever I could. And I burnt out, so I do not recommend that. And then now I'm trying to be a little bit more rigid in terms of scheduling and even scheduling breaks, but fitting it in where I'm naturally most productive. So I will wait here today because I'm most productive in terms of writing in the morning. So I'll wake up, make coffee, and I can sit down at my computer and write for a little bit.
Katrina Jackson: And I'm trying to be kind about thinking about when my job at the university actually requires me to work because I think academics are really great about working 24/7 and never giving themselves a break or prioritizing things that their university wants or that they say tenure needs or whatever, whether or not it feeds them. And in the past two years I've been really firm about when my university requires me to work, like when I'm teaching, when I have to be at meetings, when my students or colleagues are more likely to contact me. And then outside of those times I'm not working for my university. I'm just not doing that. And then that time can be anything else.
Kenrya: That's what's up.
Erica: It's crazy.
Kenrya: Go ahead.
Erica: No, you go, Kenrya.
Kenrya: No, I was just... A lot of folks on my Twitter timeline are like Black academics or whatever, I don't know really how that happened. But folks are always just talking about how the academy is, about the anti-Blackness of it and about how one of the ways that that comes through is this culture of overwork and under-reward, right? And so much of combating that I think is remembering the agency that you have, which is what it sounds like you're doing.
Katrina Jackson: Yeah. And I think the really sad part is I knew all this. I knew all this before I got my degree and I got my job. I was really lucky in that all of my PhD advisors were people of color, most of them were Black, of varying generations even, right. And so somehow even, though I watched their careers be disrupted by the ways in which departments didn't reward them... like my first advisor was certainly a mess, but he was a very intelligent man, not the most effective teacher, but just ridiculously smart. Right after I got my master's, he didn't get tenure and then he left. And I was like, "Well then what does that mean? What do I do?" And I was saved by a whole bunch of Black academics and other people of color.
Katrina Jackson: But even at the time, even as I was like, "Oh, I'm free of him." I was like, "This is actually incredibly ridiculous." This is a man who did all the things, in some cases more of the things, that he should do and his university didn't reward him with the thing that academics are supposed to be rewarded with, which is tenure. And so then he moved around. And I knew all of that, I saw it happen to other people and I fell right into that trap where it was like, "Okay, one more thing. I'm going to take on one more committee. I'm going to advise one more student. I'm going to grade until two o'clock in the morning," or whatever it was.
Katrina Jackson: And they tell you, this is going to be a bit adjacent, but they tell you, "Oh, after tenure it'll be better." And so many academics learn, "Oh, actually after tenure, it isn't better." And then especially being someone from my background who has... I have no safety net, I do not come from a family of means. I take care of myself, like in people who are relying on me in some way. And so they tell you after tenure the money will be good. And the money's not good when you came in making less than your colleagues who are white and or who got that job a generation before. I mean, it's just a whole bunch of lies. And so setting that boundary was part of me finally accepting that I wasn't going to like, whatever, talented tenth my way out of the bullshit.
Kenrya: Shit. Yeah.
Erica: That's a word.
Kenrya: That's a whole word.
Erica: Especially for our cousins that are looking to head into academia.
Kenrya: Or who are looking to break out.
Katrina Jackson: Well, look. Look.
Erica: So buy this book.
Katrina Jackson: Buy this book so I can break out.
Erica: It can be found on Patreon.
Kenrya: Exactly. Lord.
Erica: So here on the podcast, we use erotica as the jumping off point for conversations just about everything, including sex. So we always like to ask about the lessons folks learned when they were growing up. So what was the prevailing attitude about sex and gender in your home growing up?
Katrina Jackson: Oh, that's a great question. I think I got a lot of mixed messages about both. On the one hand, I think I got a lot of messages that sex was taboo or secret. And on the other hand, in some ways I grew up in a family that was fairly liberated relative to sex, partially because I didn't grow up in the kind of family that tied sex and marriage and children. My mother was a single mother, actually so were both of my aunts. And so I grew up in a family that was really female-centered. And yet I also learned really sort of negative and regressive messages about what women could do, what women should want out of life, and how men should behave.
Katrina Jackson: And then on the other hand, I grew up with a grandfather who was always literally right there helping his three children with, at least from my child eyes, very little judgment about how they handled their lives. And then I grew up in a family that sort of revered his relationship with my grandmother. And then a few years ago, my mother and I found out that my grandparents were never married. And so I had all of these very mixed messages about gender and sex. And I think a lot of my, in particular my 30s, have been sort of pulling apart those messages and trying to save what I think actually served me.
Katrina Jackson: I am not married. I have no kids, which is very rare in my family, generally speaking. And there are moments in my life where I felt very unhappy about that as if I was failing in some way. And yet I don't actually think that's a message that people in my family have necessarily put on my back, but it's something that I thought I should feel bad about. So I also would say though it's true that like, I don't come from a family that talks about sex or gender explicitly, a lot of what I learned was because I was a really quiet and observant child, which meant that I learned some of those hypocrisies because I didn't have the full story, right, so.
Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So last week, as we said, we read an excerpt from “Looking,” thanks again for that. And the book stars Nadia and Darren, a married couple that realizes that they want to bring a third, Jourdan, into their marriage. Where did the idea for this particular book come from?
Katrina Jackson: So I love polyamory. It is in a whole bunch of my books. But I had always written polyamorous relationships where everyone is very experienced or at least very ready. And for the longest I had wondered what it would be like to write a married couple that has no idea what they're doing. And in particular, also to write a queer woman who realizes in her 30s that she's queer because that had just not been an exploration she had gone on before. And so this was the story. And in the beginning it was supposed to be, first of all, shorter. The plan was that this would be like a smooth 15-
Erica: We said that. We said that in the episode. I was like, "Is this a short? Because we read it so quickly, it was hard to like... We couldn't recall.
Kenrya: But I remember you tweeting that you kept trying to write shorts, but them shits kept turning into full-on projects.
Katrina Jackson: Yes. So this one was supposed to be like, I don't know, 15,000 words, something like that. It's 50, and I don't know how. I mean, I know how that happened, but I was just definitely like, "What the fuck is going on here?" But it's because in the end I really wanted to write a relationship that had, because I prized this in polyamorous romances that are done well in my opinion, where everyone has a distinct relationship with one another. And that's how I approached this section.
Katrina Jackson: So like Darren and Jourdan have a specific relationship, Jourdan and Nadia have a specific relationship... whatever, all of those iterations, and that mattered to me. And I just, in my foolishness, thought I could do that very quickly and be like, "Well, story over. We're done." And that's just not realistic. So yeah, it sort of came from really wanting to think about what it's like to build a foundation of a relationship and not have to think about or... 10 years they have gone through all these things because you can imagine them going through these things hopefully because they have very carefully set a foundation for a relationship they'd like to have together.
Erica: We've had interviews in the past with people that practiced ethical non-monogamy. And one of the things that stood out is, I think one of the questions we asked was like, "What do you want people to know about ethical non-monog?" And I recall one of the guests saying, "Our relationships aren't interchangeable. We have very specific relationships with each person." And I think it's beautiful that you were intentional about that in this book, and it came across. So that was dope. As we mentioned, we featured another one of your books, “Welcome to Sea Port,” on the show. And that book was also about a polyamorous relationship. So what draws to you to write about these characters?
Katrina Jackson: I'm bi, and so I like to write whatever I like, and it's easy if I can put it all in one book. But I don't have to think about it. So I think that's one thing, but-
Erica: Why choose?
Katrina Jackson: Yeah. Why choose, truly? But I also think too that so much of what I like about polyamorous relationships is I think the hopeful, if it's done well, again, for me, is the intentionality, right. I think it's super easy to write, and maybe it's accidental, but I think it's really easy to write sort of, in particular the MF erotica and male/female erotica or romance where it's not intentional, like I'm just supposed to believe these people are together because they want to be together and there's nothing sort of there, right. And while I love insta-love or instant lust, I think you still have to have something to get past just the first sexual encounter or whatever. Now, if it's just the first sexual encounter, Lord also send me that, right, I'll also write that. But if-
Kenrya: And I'm the queen of being like, "But why do you like him? He's an asshole." Or like, "What? What is it?"
Katrina Jackson: But you don't have to like someone necessarily to fuck them, which is lovely, right. And so there should be, at least for me, a distinction. And I think polyamorous romances actually do require you to be more intentional because it's not just like, "Oh, we have this one night stand." And like in the ‘Welcome to Sea Port’ series it's not like, "Oh, we had this one night stand. I'm never going to see you again." This town is that big, right. So you're going to see these people again, and so there has to be something there. So I do like the intentionality of a polyamorous relationship. Yeah, I would say those are the two big things.
Erica: Okay. And that kind of leads us to our next question. So in the last episode we talked about how Jourdan's experience caused her the first blow up that they had. We talked about how her past experiences caused her to come in hot in an interaction with Darren. And it rang so true to us, I was reading that shit like, "Whoa."
Erica: So how do you write internal shit so well? Because we feel it, and even as adults, it takes us a while to even do all the links and then be like, "Oh, shit. That's why." And you write all of that shit out. You write it out and then it sounds good, so...
Kenrya: And it made sense, right, when we started because we didn't... So we're trying not to spoil, so we didn't talk about what the blow up was. But when we thought about their previous interactions [crosstalk 00:23:10].
Erica: How you laid the scene, it was just like, "Oh. Shit. Yeah."
Katrina Jackson: So, one, I'm a pantser, so none of that was planned.
Kenrya: I was going to ask, are you a pantser or, what is it, plotter?
Katrina Jackson: Plotter. Yeah.
Kenrya: Is that what the other people are called? Okay.
Katrina Jackson: I could not plot my way out of a paper bag. I could not. But I-
Erica: You're doing well. You're doing something right, so just keep at it.
Katrina Jackson: I think though, that it's nice to hear that you all think I do internal stuff well because I'm not an external conflict writer. I almost never write external conflict. And if there is external conflict, it is usually based in the internals of the relationship anyway.
Erica: Do you know what? That is why I love... didn't I say that this book was gentle? Your last book was gentle, it was just... It's-
Kenrya: Just them getting through their own shit.
Erica: Getting through their own shit.
Katrina Jackson: Because that's hard.
Kenrya: It's not some ex waiting in the wings to fuck shit up. It's not some vindictive bitch on the corner who want him to... It's just working on your own shit.
Katrina Jackson: Yeah, which is hard as fuck.
Erica: I didn't mean to cut you off, but that was...
Katrina Jackson: No, it's fine. But again, it's nice to be seen. It's always nice to be seen because I just, I think... Internal shit is hard, and I think we often in our society don't acknowledge that. And this is, for me personally, so often I am literally my own barrier. People will be like, "Ooh, I want to do this thing with you. Ooh. I want to work with you. Ooh, I want to support you." And I'm like, "But why?" And then that but why could stop me in my tracks forever or months or weeks.
Katrina Jackson: And again, like all that stuff that I've sort of learned in my family or I thought I learned in my family, so much of that I had to realize in my 30s was also me, right. Me making connections, me deciding that I was going to give that space in my brain, even when I was actively saying no to other things, I made decisions and I stood in my way. And I think a lot of that comes out in my writing because... so I, again, will get rid of external conflict or not even consider an external conflict because for however many people in your relationship, you all have to get out of your own way, you all have to decide to get out of your own way to be in this relationship.
Katrina Jackson: And that is a lot of work when done well, right. It really can't be that like, "Oh, we just decided I'm going to get over all this trauma in my past and tomorrow is a new day and everything is lovely." Which is why in so many of my books, I will even say I don't traditionally think of any of my books as a happily-ever-after, I do tend to think of them as a happy-for-now because they still have so much to go through, right. So I think in the book where I think, "Okay, you can imagine them in two years or five years or 10 years still having the tools to work through things or at least being willing to get those tools."
Kenrya: That's a really interesting point. I barely think about where people end unless it feels like it went on too long, right. I'm thinking of one book that I read in preparation for the show at some point where I was like, "Oh, we can stop right here." But it did not stop right there. It was fine because I liked the characters, but I remember being like, "I could have just imagined the rest of this and it would've been okay."
Katrina Jackson: Yeah.
Kenrya: Yeah. Huh, that's interesting. But happily ever after is such a huge part of what makes this genre move forward. I never thought about the idea of happy for now.
Katrina Jackson: Yeah.
Kenrya: Much more realistic.
Katrina Jackson: I mean, kind of. And again, I think everyone is a different writer and that's fine. And I do also know that because of that, I'm not going to be everyone's favorite writer, which is again also fine with me. But I do think that my stories, I do, stories like this, obviously not all of them, stories like this, I am trying for realism, right. So what 100% makes sense for someone in Jourdan's position to come into this relationship with a slightly older, established, married couple and have to reevaluate herself because they're reevaluating themselves, but for very different reasons that hopefully speak to people like this, because I am writing people who are like people I know or who I imagine exist in this world.
Erica: Also, even the internal conflict was not, "My husband thinks she's hotter," or, "My wife thinks she's hotter." It was just normal shit that people deal with.
Kenrya: Well, it wasn't the shit that people would project onto a couple that was practicing in this way, right. Like isn't that the thing that we would project on people, "Oh, it's got to be about attraction."
Erica: Yeah. Exactly.
Kenrya: "It's got to be jealousy."
Erica: Exactly. And it's like, "Nah, she's just feeling her own... Yeah, she's going through her own shit that's normal that if you were just with one person that was super established, you'd be having these same concerns." It was good, yeah.
Katrina Jackson: Thank you.
Erica: I keep saying that, but...
Katrina Jackson: Thank you.
Kenrya: No, that was an excellent point. You're right. Yeah, absolutely. So this book is part of your Patreon rewards. We're wondering what made you decide to go with that distribution model for this?
Katrina Jackson: Oh, not asking me questions where I have to be self-reflective. I hate that for me.
Katrina Jackson: So I think some of this was part of me setting a boundary. I think if you'll talk to any indie author, they will tell you that they have to produce at a certain level to stay on top of the algorithm to sort of stay fresh in their readers' minds, whatever. And there was a moment in my career where that's exactly what I wanted. Like in 2020, I was like, "Yep. I want to be on top of that. I want to be publishing regularly. I want you to not forget me and whatever."
Katrina Jackson: And then for a lot of different reasons I had to, one, let that go. And then, two, realized that wasn't actually what I want. I don't want to be everyone's favorite Black indie author or Black author of romance or erotica. Truly, I do not. Please, Jesus, let a bitch write, right. I think that carries a lot of weight. I think it carries a lot of responsibility and I value peace straight up, right.
Katrina Jackson: And there are some stories that will be harder for me to sell. This is not necessarily one, this is very much in my larger body of work. But there are other things that I have put on Patreon or will put on Patreon that will be a little bit harder to sell wide and that's okay. And so I wanted to, one, create a little bit of space between me and what feels like a grind, where I'm always trying to pump something out.
Kenrya: Churn something out.
Katrina Jackson: Yeah. So that I could then have this space to try something out, something a little different. Or even like with this one, I serialized it, so I published about 20,000 or so words a month. And that worked out really well, especially in the beginning, not so much at the end where I was like, "Oh, we've got to wrap this shit up. This story is ending," but it wasn't ending.
Katrina Jackson: But that was really nice to do because then it meant that I was still always writing, I was making room for writing in my life, but I wasn't publishing a book a month or publishing a novel a month. And then it also meant that people who... like I have a very random or have very random sections of my readership. Some people only read something, some people read everything. The people who end up at my Patreon will read, for the most part, everything that I write. And so this was nice because it meant that they got to get that stuff first or in this case they are the only people who get this. And so I am at least present in their mind in a way that I don't have to be present in this sort of general romance space because I don't really want to be present there, at least not in the same way.
Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Erica: Okay. So... Oh. Go ahead.
Kenrya: I've just... one thing that has happened for me over this last year, probably a year and a half, it kind of feels like it's mirroring like what you're talking about, this real reevaluation of, "What does success look like for you? And what are you willing to do to get it? And what does it do to your quality of life as you chase that?"
Katrina Jackson: Yeah.
Erica: And the quality of work.
Katrina Jackson: And the quality of the work, 100%. Yeah.
Katrina Jackson: I think-
Kenrya: Go. Yeah.
Katrina Jackson: ... you're 100% correct. I'm a fairly low-key person, period. Even in my academic work, I don't have any particular... which is why I publish as an academic much less frequently than other people want me to or other people in my position. I would like to do the good work, but I would also like to sleep. I would also like... and I have not done a great job of that by any means, but I would like to do those things.
Katrina Jackson: And so I do produce, as an academic, a little less frequently. But I also don't need to be out here giving the big lecture in my field or publishing a book every other year or whatever. I don't. It doesn't matter to me. I would much rather be present in my own life, be present for my students who are much more focused and much more real in my life than like whatever accolades come from publishing in certain ways. But with that said, I think it's also really easy, even when you make peace with that decision, to have moments where you think, "I would love to be recognized. I would love for people to not forget that I exist."
Katrina Jackson: And I think in the last two years I had that moment where I was like, "I would love to be recognized. I would love to have people know that I exist." I would love to not see people on my timeline on Twitter say, "Oh, I wish there was a... whatever, this kind of book." And I'm like, "Here I am." But would I love that recognition over peace? Not so much. And so I had to deal with that.
Kenrya: Yeah. That's pretty powerful when you get to it, it doesn't mean it's easy, but-
Katrina Jackson: And it doesn't mean you stay there either, right. You're going to have those moments where you just have to remind yourself of what matters to you, of that core goal. And also too, I think you said, which I have also struggled with, is there are certain things I'm not willing to do. There are things I'm not willing to write to be more successful, straight up. And I've said this publicly, I'll say it again, I truly don't give a shit. Every time someone acts a fucking mess, I turn one white character who I want to write into some person of color, I don't give a fuck.
Katrina Jackson: I am not interested in writing... And look, my Mafia series fucked up my percentages, so no one's seeing a white person in my catalog for a hot second. I don't care. And I will always unabashedly write queer Black people and Black men. I mean, I think that is a thing that we, as in romance, need to deal with. The lack of Black men in certain spaces is very particular. The lack of queer Black men and women certainly is a problem. So I was very deliberate here in that everyone in “Looking” is Black, straight up.
Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, even in “Welcome to Sea Port,” what I loved, we just keep going back to all your books, in “Welcome to Sea Port,” I loved that the throuple was like everybody... wasn't just-
Kenrya: Everybody loving on everybody.
Katrina Jackson: Yeah.
Erica: Yeah. It wasn't just a V, but it was a triangle. And that was refreshing to see because we don't see that, especially by Black writers, Black women writers. So we could talk and go on and on. Okay. So what did you learn from writing this book and what do you want readers to walk away with?
Katrina Jackson: I learned that I have a terrible grasp of time and how long the story will take, and I need to work on that, straight up.
Erica: It's to our benefit though.
Katrina Jackson: Thank you. I wish that was the joke answer, that is actually, literally, the answer.
Kenrya: Yeah. That's real shit [crosstalk 00:37:06] time management is important-
Katrina Jackson: It is.
Kenrya: ... and hard.
Katrina Jackson: And very hard. Very hard. So that's what I learned. I think what I want people to take away from it is things that I have had to deal with or am still dealing with internally, that it is really never too late to sort of reevaluate your life and really center the things that make you happy. And in that process, it is never too late to just not give a shit what everyone else thinks.
Kenrya: Yes. That's actually one of the things that really did stick with me and we didn't really talk about it. It's hard, since we want to talk about concepts, we also don't want to spoil shit. But the fact that they completely remade their life and their family,
Erica: Their family. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We touched on it.
Kenrya: [crosstalk 00:38:00] That shit's hard. Yeah, we did a little bit. That shit's hard, and they was like, "Fuck, yeah."
Erica: "We're going to chase happiness. We're going to follow our joy." And that was... Yeah.
Kenrya: And there were never any moments where, again, you kept it to the internal conflict that wasn't about what the fuck other people were going to-
Kenrya: ... say in it. That was super refreshing because I think so often, and I've read, well, we've done, at this point, quite a few polyamorous books on the show, but often that is the conflict, right, we all go out and we have to deal with somebody being a bigot, that's always the thing. And that wasn't, and I love that that wasn't it because they figured that shit out together.
Katrina Jackson: I think-
Erica: Because there are bigger things to be more concerned about.
Katrina Jackson: Right.
Erica: And so... Oh, sorry.
Katrina Jackson: No, that's literally the point, right. That's literally the point. I do not tend to write a lot of kids in books, I don't care.
Erica: Fuck them kids.
Katrina Jackson: Right. I mean-
Erica: As a parent, I can say that.
Katrina Jackson: ... I love children, I just... but I have actually been writing a lot more kids accidentally in a bunch of my stories because I think that, like in this particular case, what is the point of worrying about what other people are going to think about their relationship when they have... Like Darren and Nadia have two sons who are primary, right. And so in the back of their mind is like, "Is this a good person? Could this be a good person for our child? And is this a good person who can be a part of our family?" And that has to override... if there was going to be any external conflict, it would've been that because that's the part that matters. But we are so worried about what some old white lady thinks about you holding your girlfriend's hand while your wife is there. I mean, it's just, what's the point?
Kenrya: Fuck her. Yeah.
Katrina Jackson: Truly, right. Or even just that the other bigger things are to consider how you make everyone in this relationship feel whole, right. How you deal with and handle of your needs. Like how you even deal with your living situation so that everyone has space, right, which is why that sort of epilogue is really significant because it, not to spoil, but it sort of shows you that everyone is in this relationship to make the entire family happy, not just themselves or not just one other person. And I think external conflict is hard, but so often it sort of takes over from doing the necessary internal work and the necessary work in your relationship or family in a book that you can end the story wherever it ends, whether it goes on too long or not, thinking this is a relationship that can last.
Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's real. It's like people who like to stir up drama rather than deal with their own shit.
Katrina Jackson: Hello. And I've been that person, so it don't make you happy.
Kenrya: It does not.
Erica: Do you have a favorite line or passage in this book?
Katrina Jackson: No, I forgot that whole thing. I published that last chapter on Patreon and I was like... You're lucky I remember names. Every time I write a sequel, I'm like, "Who is this person? Did I give them a last name? What color are their eyes? Are they tall, short?" I'm trash. Absolutely not.
Erica: Okay. And that is all right.
Kenrya: That's funny. What's your superpower?
Katrina Jackson: What? Right now I think it is my ability to learn how to be honest with myself or I am learning how to be honest with myself and it's hard and I'm doing it anyway.
Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right.
Erica: Okay. So since we're talking about good things coming in threes, we're going to ask you your top three. So I'm going to name a category. I want you to give me your top three. Okay?
Katrina Jackson: Okay.
Erica: Top three people in the world.
Katrina Jackson: Aw, come on. Okay. Like my mama. I love all my nieces and nephews, but my middle niece is absolutely fantastic. And I mean, he has long since passed, but my grandfather is still my absolute favorite person.
Erica: Okay. Top three songs.
Katrina Jackson: So the first part of “Hold On” by Adele has a hold on me right now. Not the whole song, just the first two verses and the chorus, absolutely in love with that. The “Homecoming” version of “Formation,” absolute hold on me, play it all the time.
Kenrya: I listen to that album still.
Katrina Jackson: So often. Which is-
Kenrya: It is my favorite.
Erica: I can't listen to her regular music.
Katrina Jackson: No, because then you start singing.
Erica: I can't listen to a song without hearing the “Homecoming” [crosstalk 00:43:31].
Katrina Jackson: Yes.
Kenrya: Absolutely. It is just phenomenal.
Katrina Jackson: Absolutely. Which is why the third is actually the “Love On Top” version from “Homecoming,” which is my favorite version of “Love On Top.”
Erica: Y'all going to have me listening to Bey. Ooh, I'm going to listen when I get off...
Katrina Jackson: I just like the progression, like oh my God, I could-
Kenrya: And her transitions are the fucking best. And then when you can hear this other song coming in the background. And I still have moments from... So Erica and I have been to see her live [crosstalk 00:44:04].
Erica: Every single show since Mrs. Carter.
Katrina Jackson: Oh, okay.
Kenrya: Yeah. And all in different cities, we travel. But I remember the first show we went to, she was doing... Oh fuck. Oh God, I can't remember what the original song was, but she put “Flashing Lights” in it for two seconds and it sank into my soul. And so now every time I hear the song, I hear it, and I can't forget. Her transitions are just like fucking transcendent. I just-
Katrina Jackson: I think if you grew up on DJ mixes on the radio, she speaks to that part of you. And there is nothing I love more than an uncanny remix that brings something back from forever ago, something you grew up with, something you ain’t heard in 10 years.
Erica: That's my shit.
Katrina Jackson: Literally. And so I also... it is no shock that I prefer the live versions of a whole bunch of her songs to the studio versions because just what she does with [crosstalk 00:45:10].
Kenrya: When you hear... like when you know, I'll be like, "Yes. Yes. This is for real niggas." Like when you hear the two seconds and you know exactly what's about to come next and you get hyped. Like right before “Swag Surfin'” comes in and you know that's what's about to fucking happen, and you know that's just meant for y'all, mm-mm (negative), can't. Yeah.
Kenrya: I get hype. Sorry.
Katrina Jackson: No, for real though, it's a perfect album, to be honest with you. For me at least, it's a perfect album.
Kenrya: And I had the bootleg version the one where somebody had recorded the actual show. So I was listening to that for like the year before it came out. But the real one is so much better, I just... but I still have that one too.
Erica: You can hear like the live [crosstalk 00:45:58].
Katrina Jackson: Even the band, there are moments when it's just the band and I'm like, "Oh, this is some real nigga shit."
Kenrya: That whole transition into “Party” where they're doing all the songs. Oh, bless them.
Erica: Okay. So this was not question, but I'm about to ask. Top three Beyoncé songs. Everybody has to answer. Top three Beyoncé songs.
Kenrya: [crosstalk 00:46:18] I don't know.
Katrina Jackson: Okay.
Kenrya: That's... Okay. You're playing.
Erica: I'm going to have to look at my phone.
Kenrya: Let me look at my playlist situation here.
Erica: Okay. This is... Oh, wow. Okay. So let me see what I got.
Katrina Jackson: I feel like the easiest way would just be to go to what I listen to all the time, but it's so mood specific [crosstalk 00:46:46].
Kenrya: Yeah, I got certain albums I listen to for certain things. Like when I wash my hair, I listen to “Black Is King.” I have a version that takes out all the like interstitials, that's my hair washing, for whatever reason.
Katrina Jackson: Yeah.
Erica: Okay. Damn.
Kenrya: You asked this shit.
Erica: I know. I know. I know.
Katrina Jackson: I also feel like there's a very basic version of me, that's like when I'm writing romance, there are just a couple songs where I'm like, "I want to hear just this on the loop though. Nothing else."
Erica: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so... This is so hard. So hard. Okay. And then also some of these songs are just because I love the performances. Okay, so I am going to say... Damn. I was listening to “Irreplaceable” in the car the other day, singing my fucking heart out. I was like, "Damn, that's a good song." So I would put “Irreplaceable” on it. Oh, “Don't Hurt Yourself” because that was my divorce anthem. And... this is hard, “Love On Top.” Kenrya?
Kenrya: All right. Listen here. So I think the first one is my first favorite that I've been ever had of her, so it's got to go on the list, it's “Get Me Bodied.” I can listen to “Get Me Bodied” over and over, and I have all these great memories of like... So every time, we play the extended version in this house. And so we do all the things, me and my kid, we walk across the floor, we do it all. And so it's got a lot of great memories because I just fucking love that song. I can't really dance that much anymore. I can't actually dance to the song anymore because of the energy that it requires, but it just makes me happy.
Kenrya: “Party”? I think it just goes up. So the theme you'll see, I like her faster songs. I like the ballads, but the ballads are not the ones that I play all the time. What are you about to say, E?
Erica: No, “Party” reminds me of a very specific homecoming at Bar 7, fucking packed to the gills, we're standing on the-
Kenrya: On the banquettes.
Erica: Yeah. Standing, drunk as shit, singing “Party.” And if I'm not mistaken, we were drinking out of a bottle, passing that bitch around.
Kenrya: That was a pre-COVID thing that we did.
Erica: And Bar 7 is literally like this big, and them motherfuckers would pack [crosstalk 00:50:07].
Kenrya: Like, try to go to the bathroom, literally my feet are off the ground because I can't, there's so many people. God, I used to hate having to go pee in that place. And... Oh wait, I had another one and I have now forgotten what it was. I'll come back with my third one because I lost it from my brain.
Erica: Okay, Katrina, your turn.
Katrina Jackson: Okay. I'll balance you out because I prefer her ballads. So again, “Love On Top,” the “Homecoming” version, even though sometimes I do play the studio version because I just want to hear that part at the end, where she is just like... And then it's also staged a bit like too... I prefer the live version.
Kenrya: You've got to get the modulation because it's just goosebumps. Yep.
Erica: I know exactly what I'm thinking.
Katrina Jackson: And then I am a sucker for “Blue.” It's just the sweetest song ever. And [inaudible 00:51:14] I'm absolutely part of the Ivy League, we do what we can. And then... Oh, shit. What was my third? Oh, actually this is not really a ballad, but “Me, Myself and I” will... I think I was going through a breakup, so it has like a very [crosstalk 00:51:33].
Erica: Bitch got herself the best breakup song. Ooh, that's a good breakup song. That shit will have you changing your oil by yourself like, "Fuck it."
Kenrya: Wait. Oh, that actually reminds me of my third one. It's “Grown Woman.”
Katrina Jackson: Yes. Oh, I almost chose that.
Kenrya: Yeah. “Grown Woman.” Which you can only... you have to watch the video to hear the song, which is fine because I adore-
Katrina Jackson: I have a rip of that from some video from somewhere, I don't play.
Kenrya: I just put the fucking video on, on my phone. I don't care.
Erica: I was also going to say “End of Time,” just because I love the performance, the one that she did, I want to say it was like at some like London stadium. Remember she was like, "Beyonce is going to be at the Oscars." And she's like-
Kenrya: Cuts her. Yeah.
Erica: Zoomed in. She did a Zoom performance that... So anyway. Okay. Last top three. Top three foods.
Katrina Jackson: Damn. Sushi, burritos, gumbo. I'm just real hungry.
Erica: [crosstalk 00:52:43] We could eat [crosstalk 00:52:44], it's okay.
Kenrya: You're right. Those are all delicious things. Well, I can't eat gumbo, but those are delicious things.
Katrina Jackson: Why can't you eat gumbo?
Erica: You can eat gumbo.
Kenrya: It always has meat in it.
Erica: But you could do it. You can do it without, with just the seafood.
Kenrya: Yeah. But whoever does that?
Katrina Jackson: No, I know lots of people who do that.
Kenrya: Oh I don't. I need those people cooking for me.
Erica: Shit, I can do it.
Katrina Jackson: Yeah, it doesn't have to apparently. So my mother's family is from Louisiana, a part of them are, but I'm from California. But apparently in Louisiana, you're not supposed to be mix the meat and seafood, which I did not realize. So apparently if you go to Louisiana, you can get just the seafood gumbo.
Erica: I have bastardized gumbo.
Katrina Jackson: Haven't we all.
Erica: And it's good gumbo, but I would never put it against like real...
Kenrya: Yeah. I always end up having to get like a seafood etoufee because meat. Everything's always got that fucking andouille sausage in it which...
Katrina Jackson: Yeah. But apparently it's not traditional. So if you go to Louisiana, you should be okay. But yeah, we bastardize it, we're like what is in the fridge? What did we get from the butcher?
Erica: I literally put chicken wings in my gumbo.
Katrina Jackson: Yes. Same. I grew up with the little drumettes.
Erica: Yeah. Yeah, them little joints at the [crosstalk 00:53:59].
Katrina Jackson: Yeah, the little drumettes, a big ass thing with crab legs, shrimp, hot links, all the shit in there. That is not traditional.
Erica: Damn, I'm going to make some gumbo this week. I'm going to make some gumbo this week, my son going out because he can't-
Kenrya: He don't have seafood.
Erica: He can't have seafood or some fucked up [inaudible 00:54:16].
Kenrya: And what are you reading right now?
Katrina Jackson: Stuff I don't even want to talk about because it's trash, but [inaudible 00:54:29].
Kenrya: That's okay.
Katrina Jackson: I'm on a science fiction kick right now. And I'm reading a whole bunch of not classic science fiction, it's all a mess. I'm mostly reading it and being unhappy because my brain likes to pull things apart and I'm just like, "What's happening here? Why is this happening? Why did he write it this way?" So I'm reading the Dune series because I like that movie. I love some Zendaya, so I'll watch damn near anything she's in. And then, here we are. And then I'm reading the “Wheel of Time” series, which is an honest to God mess. But I-
Kenrya: And they're just... Are you reading it because did you just watch it?
Katrina Jackson: Yeah. And I just want to know. But I did just finish “Barracoon” by Zora Hurston, which I'm reading for a class.
Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right.
Erica: Okay. What's turning you on today?
Katrina Jackson: Sleep. Nothing. Nothing. I'm dealing with seasonal depression, and-
Erica: We're just making it.
Katrina Jackson: We're just making it. Yeah.
Katrina Jackson: That's all right.
Kenrya: That's the thing. What's up next for you? What are you working on?
Katrina Jackson: Like eight things at once because even though I just told you all I'm working on my time, I'm putting up boundaries, that still means I'm working on like 3,000 things. So I'm working on three projects right now at various stages. I'm finishing the last novel in my Mafia series, which is going to be the last white dude y'all see from me for a hot second. I'm working on the second book of my “Love At Last” series called “One More Valentine” about a divorced couple getting back together. And I literally, just this morning, started my next Patreon serial which is going to be an erotic romance set during the Harlem Renaissance, another polyamorous, but this one's MMF, so we'll see.
Kenrya: Okay. Sounds interesting. Y'all need to get on this motherfucking Patreon. Y'all heard that. By the time you hear this episode, it'll be up. You need to go on and get with that, so [crosstalk 00:56:49].
Katrina Jackson: Don't over promise because I am trash.
Erica: You are an amazing writer and sometimes perfection takes a little bit longer.
Katrina Jackson: Thank you. But I'll send you that one and we can maybe talk about my very big message to the historical romance community, which is our ancestors will fucking stop writing these sweet historical romances only. Thank you. I'll hop off my footbox now.
Erica: Yeah, we featured it.
Kenrya: They made us.
Katrina Jackson: Hello.
Erica: We featured a historical romance and-
Katrina Jackson: I know you did, and I'm excited.
Erica: ... it was hot as fuck.
Katrina Jackson: It's just so much space for like, especially in those moments where they were in smokey clubs, listening to jazz and shit, all that like alcohol had no regulation.
Erica: I said, I was like, "It took me adulthood." As a kid, you learn about the Harlem Renaissance, and then you grow up. It was like, "These niggas was fucking. There's no way-"
Kenrya: [crosstalk 00:57:49] They was drunk, they was high, they was fucking.
Erica: And it wasn't happening. You had all these good unmitigated drugs and whatever you call it. All this moonshine that could turn you blind, it of course had to have your pussy sparkling, so yeah.
Katrina Jackson: Your pussy sparkling. So same thing about like the Civil Rights Movement, the Black Power era, I mean absolutely trash, a whole bunch of terrible people there.
Katrina Jackson: A mess. But also-
Erica: I would've been throwing that ass.
Katrina Jackson: Thank you. Thank you. They were out here planning for the revolution while butt naked in bed with an Afro. It was just... it's my favorite thing about history.
Kenrya: Yeah. I would read that.
Katrina Jackson: Hello. I really need someone to write it. Because as a historian, a lot of historical romance authors are very much dedicated to writing Black people back into history, Godspeed. We understand it, respectability politics, no judgment. But also I didn't read a whole bunch of these people with memoirs and it was some shit happening and it was not all straight-
Erica: It was fucking bucket.
Katrina Jackson: That's the other thing. It was not all straight, so we need to let that go. History is fascinating and horny, and I feel like we are skimping on the last part.
Erica: History is fascinating and horny.
Kenrya: History is fascinating and horny. Yeah.
Katrina Jackson: My dog's going to be like, "What the hell is wrong with you?"
Erica: I was about to say, "Just know that's going to be a slide on the social media for this episode." FYI. Yeah.
Kenrya: It can't be undone.
Katrina Jackson: It's true though. I only take that thing when I'm wrong or lying, and I'm not either those things.
Kenrya: I like it. So folks can find you on KatrinaJacksonAuthor.com. And where else can they find you?
Katrina Jackson: I guess you can find me on Twitter being trifling every now and then, not as much anymore, @katrinaJax with an X.
Katrina Jackson: I'm on Instagram a little bit @KatJacksonBooks, I don't even know that handle, so don't quote me on that.
Kenrya: That's it. I'm looking at [crosstalk 01:00:06].
Katrina Jackson: I keep thinking about regularizing but I'm just... I don't care. And then I'm also on Patreon, I'm trying to be on Patreon a little bit more. My top tier, we get together once a month and just talk. I don't even know what we talk about.
Erica: Jesus, you've got some good hair. I clicked on your Instagram just to make sure that that was it, and there's this picture of you and your hair is just like...
Katrina Jackson: Yeah.
Erica: Just beautiful.
Katrina Jackson: Thank you. I do love my hair. I'll be out here. I'll be letting a whole bunch of things ago, I don't be calling people back on time, but I do love my hair.
Erica: Your hair is fucking like... Do not get mad if I see you and I'm like... You're like, "Bitch, are you trying to nuzzle my hair?"
Katrina Jackson: Do it, because look-
Erica: "My bad."
Katrina Jackson: Look. I'm the person who I'm like, "I know we shouldn't be just out here touching Black women's hair." This is why I'm going to ask you, "Can I touch your hair?" I want to touch everybody's hair. Or if you have like-
Erica: Your shit look [inaudible 01:01:07].
Katrina Jackson: I love hair. I'm definitely that kind of Black girl who's just like, I want to talk to anybody about whatever their hair looks like. If you got good braids, I'm like, "Who did your braids? What's going on? Let's go." I love hair.
Kenrya: That's how I feel about this sweater that you're wearing. I love this like sheer situation. I'm fascinated. I love it. Love it. Love it.
Katrina Jackson: I'm coming back here again, y'all got compliments.
Kenrya: That's cause we just... we love.
Erica: Yeah, we love your work. You're just... And this conversation made me love your writing that much more, so thank you.
Katrina Jackson: Thank you.
Kenrya: And you.
Katrina Jackson: You're like, "Also your ass."
Erica: [crosstalk 01:01:52]. That'd be real fucked up.
Kenrya: Our value is not in our work, it is in our being.
Erica: Yes. No, yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Sorry, I do not mean to make it [crosstalk 01:01:59].
Katrina Jackson: But I do consider parts of my work like parts of me. Yeah. I mean it's like, whatever, I write a whole bunch of academics who need to learn how to take a fucking nap and drink some water and let people love them because I have had that problem, people I love have had that problem. I mean, I'm not all of these people. Lord, I wish I was. But parts of them are parts of me, so I didn't take any offense at all.
Erica: Thank you.
Kenrya: Well, on that note, that is it for this week's episode of The Turn On. Thank you for coming on.
Katrina Jackson: Thank you for having me. Thank you for letting me harass you into having me. I have no judgment. I woke up one day and I was like, "I'm about to get on The Turn On pod," my Twitter will be like...
Erica: I was like, "This was the best DM slide I've had."
Kenrya: Yeah. Like, "The fuck?" We're easy. We're real easy.
Erica: Yeah, we're easy.
Katrina Jackson: My favorite people usually are.
Erica: Yes, so...
Kenrya: No, thank you for saying something. Closed mouths don't get fed-
Katrina Jackson: Also true.
Kenrya: ... not on this fucking boulevard, so.
Katrina Jackson: Also true.
Kenrya: Yeah, all day. So thank you and thank you to everyone for listening and we'll see y'all next week. Take care.
Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme music is from Brazy. Hit subscribe right now in your favorite podcast app and at YouTube.com/TheTurnOnPodcast, so you'll never miss an episode.
Erica: Then follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram @TheTurnOnPodcast. And you can find links to books, transcripts, guest info, what's turning us on, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com.
Kenrya: And don't forget to email us at TheTurnOnPodcast@gmail.com with your book recommendations and your pressing sex-and related questions.
Erica: And you can support the show by leaving us a five-star review, buying some merch or becoming a patron of the show. Just head to TheTurnOnPodcast.com to make that happen.
Kenrya: Thanks for listening and we'll see you soon. Holla.
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In this episode of The Turn On, Erica and Kenrya talk to queer Black polyamorous feminist and Parenting Is Political podcast co-host Jasmine Banks about the role of kink in healing sexual trauma, the beauty of going through a second adolescence with partners you trust, teaching our kids about sex and gender and pleasure and joy, and how masturbating first thing in the morning can save lives.
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Kenrya: Come here. Get off.
Kenrya: Today, we're talking to Jasmine Banks, pronouns she and her. Jasmine is a queer Black feminist living her best polyamorous life in Arkansas. She's a nonprofit executive director and one-half of the parenting podcast Parenting is Political. Yes, it is. Hey, Jasmine.
Jasmine Banks: Hi. What up? How is everyone doing?
Erica: We are great.
Kenrya: Thank you for coming on.
Jasmine Banks: You're most welcome. It's my pleasure.
Kenrya: Now, it's time for us to get in your business.
Erica: I know. So, like Kenrya said, we're just going to jump straight into your junk. When do you first remember masturbating?
Jasmine Banks: Oh, when I was somewhere around six or eight. There was a Teddy Ruxpin with a very hard plastic nose, and I would just grind the shit out of his face.
Erica: Our parents thought they were doing something sweet, buying us these big-ass stuffed animals, and you're like, "No, you just bought me a boo."
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, yeah. It was definitely interchangeable between Teddy Ruxpin, or I had these Care Bears that also had the hard plastic nose. They don't do stuffed animals like they did. Right now, my kids, they have embroidered stuff, and it's different material, but it's a hard-ass plastic nose-
Erica: Yes, I remember.
Jasmine Banks: ... and really firm stuffing.
Erica: Because if you get hit in the face with it, like if your cousin likes swinging the legs and knocking on your face, you can lose something.
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, yeah, and I remember getting into a fight and throwing those stuffed animals and hitting my grandma's glass coffee table, trying to hit my cousin Shaniqua, and it landed face forward. So, the nose clinked on the glass, and she got her flyswatter, but yeah, it was firm, a substantial stuffed animal, and I took full advantage of it.
Erica: So, was that your preferred technique or did you have a different preferred technique as a baby Jasmine?
Jasmine Banks: It was pillows, stuffed animals. That was it.
Kenrya: That's a common thing what we’re doing.
Jasmine Banks: It was like Pretty Ricky “Grind On Me.”
Jasmine Banks: And Teddy Ruxpin was marketed as an educational toy, but they didn't know what kind of lengths this Virgo child would take that education to.
Erica: You're like, "Oh, we're going to learn a whole lot."
Jasmine Banks: Yes, I am nothing if not resourceful, like I put a little ABC tape in his belly, and he would talk to me, and then I would reduce, reuse, repurpose, recycle. You know?
Jasmine Banks: We'd learn together and then...
Erica: We learned together.
Kenrya: Learned together.
Jasmine Banks: Teddy Ruxpin after dark on my futon bed.
Kenrya: I love it.
Erica: I love it.
Jasmine Banks: My mom was like, "You're so attached to him. You'd never wanted to get rid of him when you were younger."
Erica: Like, yeah, boo. It's under this link like, "Boo."
Kenrya: Here's why. So, how old were you when you had your first kiss?
Jasmine Banks: I was nine, and it was with my godbrother. I was raised with two really incredible godmothers, Lee and Orlanda, and they were Black lesbians that lived up the street, and they had... Lee had a son from a prior marriage and that was Brandon, and we spent time together all the time, and we just wanted to see what it was like to kiss, and I remember kissing in the front room, and the parents had gone to something because back then, they were like, "We're just going to leave the babies. Just don't answer the door or the phone."
Erica: Yeah, all the time.
Jasmine Banks: All the time, and there was some uncle that was somewhere in the room not even paying attention to us.
Erica: Oh my God.
Kenrya: That's our house.
Erica: You've completely described my home, like our situation.
Jasmine Banks: He was watching BET or Matlock or something random. I just remember. In the room, it was one of those touch lamps that have three different levels, and then Lee and Orlanda's room was to the left, and there was beads on the door, and we were right by the front door, and one of those black midnight... I can't remember exactly the name, but it was one of those cone incense was just burning and the kiss-
Kenrya: You can't see.
Jasmine Banks: I really thought I was in love with Brandon.
Erica: And now, you look at him like, "Ooh," family.
Kenrya: Proximity will do that to you.
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, I'm like, "That was my family," but even though I have Black community in my school, the social setting was predominantly white. So, I was already starting to get those message of like, "That's not your real family because it's not biological."
Erica: It was like-
Jasmine Banks: Which I don't even know why white people even be talking like that because they know that it'll be biological, and they still be kissing their cousins and enjoying it. So...
Erica: Oh, well. We have whole dynasties. They have whole dynasties built upon that, but-
Kenrya: Keeping it in the family.
Erica: ... they ain't ready for that conversation. Isn't that what the young people say?
Kenrya: Let me know when we going to talk? So, y'all don't want to hear that.
Erica: Yeah, we ain't ready to talk about it.
Kenrya: But bitch, you just started the conversation. Okay. You just made me feel old.
Erica: How old were you when you had a sense of your gender identity?
Jasmine Banks: I have a very interesting story, and I don't even know if K knows this because I'm not super public about it, but in the spirit of giving y'all the juicy content, I was assigned female at birth, and then about eight or nine, I started having developmental issues, and I lived female at birth. My gender was girl. So, sex, obviously different than gender, but it does definitely inform so much about how you perform gender, about how you come into gender conversations. So, around 12, I had this period. My period started, and it didn't stop, and it didn't stop for six months, and I got really, really sick and anemic, and my mom had to take me to the emergency room.
Jasmine Banks: So, they did an X-ray on my abdomen, and they were like, "Something is not right here." So, they gave me some meds to stop the bleeding, and then I went into emergency surgery, and then whenever I came back from emergency surgery, they said, "On your right ovary, part of it was filled with cysts, and we're going to diagnose you with polycystic ovarian syndrome, and then the other section of your right ovary was actually an internal gonad, and you have hyperandrogenism," and they told me at that time that chromosomally and hormonally, I was more male than female, but my sex designation on my birth certificate didn't change, and I continue to feel like very affirmed as a woman and knowing that hormonally and chromosomally, I am more toward the male end of the spectrum of the sex assignments than the female.
Jasmine Banks: Then for part of my life, I went on hormones to increase my female presentation, like growing breasts and fighting hair and finding different things, and then they told me I would never have children because I was making too much testosterone internally to be able to ever fertilize an egg or be compatible with semen, but I surprised them and have four of them little niggas.
Kenrya: Yeah, you do.
Jasmine Banks: With one ovary.
Erica: I know.
Kenrya: That ovary be working hard.
Erica: God is my witness. We going to have a baby.
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, yeah, and it came as quite a surprise to me because I was not trying to get pregnant, and after I had that initial period of menstruation, I never menstruated again, which was a part of being intersex is what it's called, and so yeah, and the only way that I could really menstruate at that point was if I gave myself the hormones because my testosterone level, and all of my androgens are just through the roof, which makes me stronger, and I have more of a sex drive than a lot of hormonally typical assigned female folks, and there's just lots of dynamics that play into it. It's quite interesting.
Erica: Answer this if you'd like, or if not, shut up, bitch. We'll be fine. Are you still on meds? How does that affect now?
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, so I tried to go on birth control to level out some of my body dysmorphia that I experienced around the follicle, like PMS menstruation cycle, and because I have so much testosterone, whenever I went on synthetic estrogen, my body... The hormonal response was just to make even more testosterone and then even more estrogen and then even more progesterone, which caused me all types of issues. So, my endocrinologist was like, "Please don't ever try that again."
Erica: Just you.
Jasmine Banks: Like, "You're intersex. Just be intersex," and the only thing I have to do if I want to get pregnant is I have to supplement progesterone, so it lowers my testosterone levels a little bit so that my body doesn't become a war zone for a fetus.
Erica: Yeah, no. Right after surgery, but before I started chemo, I had to do the egg preservation steps, and baby, like-
Jasmine Banks: Them shots.
Erica: I had to chemo any day. Those hormones, bitch. I remember I was in a nail salon crying and cussing a nigga out over nail polish like, "You don't fucking understand." Those hormones would do something to you, so I'm glad you're able to just live without it.
Kenrya: She already a Gemini, so...
Jasmine Banks: And what?
Kenrya: And she's already a Gemini. Look at her looking at me.
Erica: Shut up, bitch. You're bringing up old shit just to—fix your face. I thought we was homies. I thought she was a homie.
Jasmine Banks: My wife's a Gemini.
Erica: God bless you.
Erica: You know how to love a complex creature.
Jasmine Banks: My oldest daughter is also Gemini.
Erica: That was training.
Kenrya: Is she?
Jasmine Banks: Yeah.
Kenrya: Oh. I'm surrounded. Between Erica and my daughter, they just here. My daddy's a Gemini.
Jasmine Banks: You got to love them.
Kenrya: I do.
Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ding, ding, ding. Ding, ding, ding.
Kenrya: They are lovable. They just got a lot going on.
Erica: We have a lot of angst in our spirits.
Jasmine Banks: They just need us in their life.
Kenrya: That's true. So, how old were you when you first started experimenting sexually with other people?
Jasmine Banks: Nine. No. Was it nine? No, 13.
Erica: I need the story behind it because your face was just... I need to know what made that happen to your face.
Jasmine Banks: Well, her name was Sarah, and she lived in Tulsa, another neighbor, and we were really good friends, spent all summer together. I think we went to different schools, but we definitely had a lot of summertime interaction, and we were the only kids. Well, there were only three families that had children on our street. So, I would spend the night at her house. Her father had these magazines stacked up in their playroom where we would play with the Barbies. It was like right whenever Skipper's little sister came on the scene in Barbie, and you could squeeze her belly, and she'd pee in the potty.
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, so we got this set up. I'm very specific. I be like archiving my life. So, I have journals detailing this-
Jasmine Banks: .... pretty well. Yeah.
Erica: This is a Virgo.
Jasmine Banks: Yeah. So, Sarah and I are in his hunting room, which has this little play section, and all of these magazines just has sports magazines and on the tops of all of them, it's just about deer and bird hunting and fishing, and he was an outdoorsman, and at one point, we were trying to move the magazines to create a mansion or neighborhood for our Barbies, and the magazine stack slid, and underneath it was Drew Barrymore's Playboy Edition, and I was like, "What is this?"
Erica: Now, we bout to play.
Jasmine Banks: So, I unzip my Care Bear onesie and shove the magazine in there, and we run to her room, and we looked at Drew Barrymore's butterfly tattoos and her playboy centerfold, and that led to lots of experimentation and touching and dry humping and grinding, and Sarah was the first person that I had sexual contact with. Consensual sexual contact with, I think is important to delineate.
Kenrya: Absolutely. Well, actually, the next question is, can you tell us about your first time having partnered sex? So, I don't know if y'all actually ended up having what you would term sex or if that would be another situation.
Jasmine Banks: I mean, there was digital stimulation. There was oral stimulation. There was climax. I would call it-
Kenrya: Yeah, sounds like sex to me.
Jasmine Banks: ... partner sex. Yeah. We were like 12, 13, somewhere in that range, and then we became girlfriends. I don't think we called each other girlfriends, but that's what we were, and I lived there for two and a half years, and we had a regular sexual relationship, and my mom would be like, "Yeah, you could have a sleepover. Just no boys allowed," and I was all, “Bet.”
Jasmine Banks: “Bet. No boys allowed.”
Erica: Like, "No problem." That ain't no problem. That ain't no problem.
Jasmine Banks: When she would come over to my house for a sleepover, I had one of those attic rooms that had been turned into a room, so it had the stairs going up, and it had an attic fan, but it was a whole door situation, and I was like, "Let's turn up Usher really loud, and you just lay on your back," and just dry hump for hours.
Erica: Look, I call him our good friend. I call them our good friend dry humping because once we started having sex, we left dry humping in the past, but-
Kenrya: ... dry humping can be a very useful thing.
Jasmine Banks: Well, in the queer community, it's not separate than penetrative sexual expression and practice. It's actually called tribbing. So, it's useful in the toolbox of sexuality because not everybody's genitals are the same, and most people think of intercourse as P and V penetration, and there's just—sex is so expansive, and sex doesn't require penetration or climax for it to be sex. So, I think if we framed it that way socially, a lot of us would be more honest about how young we were actually having sex.
Erica: So, what about an orgasm? When did you first have an orgasm with a partner?
Jasmine Banks: With Sarah, yeah. Our parents were either just negligent or super chill. I guess it depends on like-
Erica: Depending on the director of the movie.
Jasmine Banks: Right. It depends on if my PTSD is triggered, if I frame it as how I frame the story, but they were cool with me and Sarah taking showers together, and they're like, "Oh, they're just friends." I mean, my mom wasn't naïve because my mom, I came out to her when I was eight. I was like, "I think I'm gay," and she's like, "Okay, girl. Eat your food."
Erica: “What's for dinner?”
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, so we were allowed to do all sorts of things even though my mom had drag queens as friends and folks in that period of time that identified as transsexuals and folks that were just gay men. My mom had a lot of really good friends who were impacted by HIV/AIDS. So, she was having conversations with me about sex and sexual identity very, very early on, and I knew about masturbation as one of the first... She framed it as like, "If you don't know how to please yourself, can't nobody else please you, so you better start practicing, Jasmine, and know what feels good to you," which is really interesting in juxtaposition with some of her other parenting practices, but suffice to say, I think she probably knew what was going on and was laissez-faire about it, whereas Sarah's parents were like country-ass white people who were like, "They're just friends taking showers together."
Jasmine Banks: Anyway, so my first orgasm was in the shower with a removable shower head with Sarah. We figured out how to turn it on the high-pressure vibration mode, and I just held it at her, and it worked.
Erica: I still haven't done the shower thing. We-
Kenrya: Yeah, we were talking to somebody else doing a, "This is your sex life," and she was saying that that's one of her tools, and we were both like, "We never do that."
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it became an issue for my mom whenever I used it as a young person because she'd be like, "Other people have to use that to shower, little nasty girl," but Sarah was the first person that I realized that I could use that medium to achieve climax, but what I didn't realize is when you have that really intense experience for the first time and you're not prepared for it, your legs start shaking and you get weak and in a slippery bathtub is probably not where you want that to happen.
Kenrya: Poor baby.
Jasmine Banks: So, I'm standing in the back and pushing myself back onto the tiles so that she can do what she needs to do with the shower head, and I climax, and my legs fall out from under me, and I just... like strike me and Sarah in the shower, but I don't think any of us have unclumsy sexual experiences no matter what age.
Erica: None of us.
Kenrya: Makes it fun.
Erica: Yeah, when you're older, it makes it a little more dangerous because those body parts aren't as rubbery as they were when you were younger.
Jasmine Banks: That's so funny. Yes, that's true. That's very true.
Kenrya: So, what three words would you use to describe sex in your teens?
Jasmine Banks: It was confusing. It was painful. Gosh. I feel like I'm such a buzz kill now in this part of the interview.
Jasmine Banks: And it was about safety.
Kenrya: Do you want to expound on any of that or do you want to move on to your 20s?
Jasmine Banks: Sure. So, around the time that I moved away from that neighborhood, with Sarah, I moved into a community called The Colony, which is for single mothers who are widowed or divorced who have been homeless because my mom had gone through multiple domestic violence situations, and we lived in domestic violence shelters. So, anyway, we landed in this place that was my most stable home, and it was in very much influenced and proselytized by the churches that were in that area. So, as a part of going to school with a white majority, junior high and high school, and being a part of this community that was preyed upon of like, "Oh, you're a widow and you're a single mom, and you should come to this event," I started going to youth group.
Jasmine Banks: So, I went from having this really fringe radical Black, queer, Native experience as a young person into this very white cisgender heterosexual Christian patriarchal frame, and there was a lot of social motivation for me to not identify as Black, but to identify as mixed, for me to ask Jesus to be my Lord and Savior and get rid of all of the sinful things that, obviously, because she was a single mother, she had... my mom had thrust upon me. So, I went through a period of really rejecting all the things that my mom taught me around sex and positivity in the best way that she could because she felt like she wasn't empowered and adopted a lot of the True Love Waits movement, which was Joshua Harris and a part of the white evangelical church.
Jasmine Banks: So, there's purity balls and there's like throwing away your secular music and don't be a sexual temptress, and then that really required me pressing down my identity as a queer person, and at that point, I identified as a bi person. So, I confessed those evil sins to my youth pastor and all of my other student leaders, and I made a commitment to be celibate, and I threw away any kind of idea around non-monogamy, and I was on the straight and narrow, and during a religious trip to the Cherokee Nations, family camp revival, that was happening in my senior year, I met a white man who was part of a worship group who had come to the Cherokee nation to do a mission trip over spring break, and he ended up being... I was 18, and he ended up being the first person I married.
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, so I spent the last part of my teenage years with him, and the safety layer of that is that when you're told at, like my mom is an unenrolled Cherokee, which means that she's not actually allowed to claim Cherokee citizenship even though her father's mother is on the Dawes Rolls. We're currently in the process of applying for citizenship so people can stop telling me that I'm not Cherokee because I can't handle it. So, when you're not Black enough, you're not Cherokee enough, you're not straight enough, you're not queer enough, you're the single mom, you're homeless, really, you look for safety, and anti-Blackness in the form of cishet patriarchal society, particularly of the white Christian persuasion, offers a lot of faux safety.
Jasmine Banks: But what you trade for your safety is compliance and shedding your identity. So, I did that in my teen years, my junior high and teen years, in order to feel some stability and normalcy. The short version of the end of that story is it didn't fucking work.
Kenrya: Okay, good. So, what three words would you use to describe sex in your 20s?
Jasmine Banks: Sex in my early 20s was unfulfilling, was about power, and was just about reproduction and getting my babies.
Kenrya: You want to dive into any of that?
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, so, by the time I was 20, I had married this white man from an upper-class family and a very Southern Baptist background, and I was trying my best despite all of my feminists and Black feminists and radical ideology and proclivities to be the good Christian wife, and we were in ministry together in church ministry around worship, and then I did children's ministry. So, I didn't really have a very fulfilling sexual life because he was not able to come to a space with partnered sex that was liberatory and open because of how his Southern Baptist upbringing had really caused so much damage around sexual identity, and then on top of that, I didn't know that he was an abuser, and that it was an underground situation.
Jasmine Banks: So, sex then just became about like, "How do I negotiate power with him? How do I have children because I know I want to have children, if I'm going to have children?" Because I'd already had one by accident, which was Zara, and then I knew I wanted her to have siblings, but the writing was clearly on the wall that we were not going to be together, and I didn't, and I hadn't yet discovered that he was a pathological sexual predator. So, yeah, it was just more about, like let's just figure out how to survive in this marriage and get my needs met. By the time Zara was born, I was still in undergrad, and he had tried to pressure me to not keep the baby, or if I kept the baby to drop out of school, and I just knew sort of intuitively that I needed to push through school, and I was like, "No, you drop out, and I will stay," and then I had a lot of non-sexual deeply intimate same-sex relationships through my 20s where there was cuddling and erotic connection, but there was never intercourse.
Jasmine Banks: So, I didn't feel sexually deprived, but I was coming to terms with the fact that I either need to have an open marriage, or I need to admit that I'm more queer than what I can stand, and also I'm just not a good Christian wife, but by the time I was 20... Yeah, 25 was the first time I discovered that he was a sexual predator and had been assaulting women and hiding it from me, and he went to sex rehab. So, then sex just became like, "What the fuck?" It was good that my mom taught me to masturbate because I did a lot of that and a lot of non-partnered sex. Am I so bumming y'all out?
Erica: No. Not at all.
Kenrya: Not at all.
Erica: I was just thinking like, "Damn, this is interesting as hell," and the fact that... I mean, I hate that super positivity where it's like, "Man, you've been through so much," and you're still so positive. I hate that, but at the same time, you understand where that's a simple way of summing up how I'm feeling right now like, "Goddamn." These experiences have made you into just an interesting little layered person that I am like, "How much time we got here? Because I want to go back to... " It's amazing how all these experiences have just built up to make you who you are, and I think it's dope as fuck.
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, so the end of my 20s was... As far as like relationally, I was working on confronting that my children who I found out were sexual assault survivors by the hands of their biological father and fighting for their right and navigating my own. When you're in intimate violent situations, sex is also a component of how the abuser brings you back and controls you or creates shame narratives. So, I was working through all of that, but by the time the end of my mid-20s rolled around, I was able to have a community to really help me emancipate myself from that chaos, and then I was able to start doing sexuality on my terms that was absence of the constraints of a predatory abusive connection.
Jasmine Banks: So, the end of my 20s was a really, really fun time of catching up on all the things my True Love Waits period of life had kept me from experiencing.
Kenrya: I just think about the ways that sex was used as a weapon within my marriage all the time and how overwhelming that is and how it contributes to my PTSD and how it stands in the way of... It doesn't have to, but it threatens to jump in the way of having healthy relationships after the fact and all that it takes to do that and loving the fact that you've been able to do that and create a life with Mo and y'all's kids, and it's just-
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, Mo and my other partners who have done a tremendous amount of dharma and labor around helping me transform, and there was a pretty good year where when Mo and I would have intercourse, particularly penetrative intercourse, where if I climaxed, I would spend the next hour in a ball having a panic attack. So, it really required having a gentle partner who could hold me and not personalize whenever I had that dissociative experience around sex and body, and we don't often talk about the ways in which those of us who have survived childhood sexual assault become enmeshed or entangled with folks who are predatory with their sexual choices and behaviors because they target us, not because we find them, but because they target us, and then that dynamic plays out, which is a part of that intergenerational work we have to do around our sex and our sexual identities and expression, but yeah.
Jasmine Banks: I think that oftentimes when we're talking about the salacious juicy parts of sex that we like to cut away how trauma has played a part of that or how struggle has played a part of that because we've been socialized to want these very linear narratives and themes like, "Oh, yeah, like all of my sex is really bomb," and people are like, "You have BDSM. You're BDSM. You're a kink practitioner. That must be so... " People get excited about it, and it's arousing, and then I say things like, "Yes, and actually, I am a kink practitioner because it has been a vehicle for healing the sexual assault and trauma," and they're like, "Awww man. You ruined it. It's not so sexy anymore."
Kenrya: But it’s fucking life.
Jasmine Banks: But it is, like what is more sexy than consent practices and negotiation of desire and openness that helps to heal wounded places in us and helps us access who we have been all along that violence and trauma kept us from being able to live in that truth? That's sexy as fuck.
Jasmine Banks: Y'all both said, "Mm."
Erica: I've always been a sexual person. Someone told me like, "You're the type of person that just gives that off," and for that reason, I've always been a sexual person. I give it off. I receive it, all of that, but doing this show has taken it to another level that has combined my love for fucking and a good orgasm and pleasure, with also just recognizing how it is freedom and a path to liberation. So, the more I hear from people like you and the more I learn, I am just taking it all in because it's amazing that... Everyone says like, "Do what you love. You never have to work a day."
Kenrya: Yeah, that's bullshit, but okay.
Erica: Yeah, but I feel like I am finally at a point where it's like all of these things that I enjoy are coming together, and not only do I enjoy it, but I see its purpose in the world, and that gets me so fucking horny.
Jasmine Banks: I mean, it's all right. If sex is about a joy and pleasure practice in some of its layers, then it makes so much sense that this is working for you and that this is hitting at a core part of who you are that is deeply linked with feelings of liberation because those of us whose histories emerged from enslavement and settler domination have not had the freedoms too. So, hoe culture, you being ratchet with your sexuality in the face of stereotypes like the Jezebel and Sapphire and the Mammy is... It's like that's powerful work, and it's political work. So, I definitely appreciate where this sits for you in the constellation of your life.
Jasmine Banks: As a polyamorous person I feel in the same way that a person who's just really guided me in my critical polyamory, which is Kim TallBear, she talks about in a podcast she recently did around how sex really needs to be taken off of the shelf, like it needs to stop being commodified. It's not like some special ornate thing. What makes it special is the meaning we make of it in the moment, but as far as a global frame, like it's not unique. It's no different than me choosing to cuddle with someone as intimacy because I can fuck someone and not feel an intimate connection with them and not feel anything. It can be exchange or extraction, or yeah, an extractive relationship, and the church has done a really good job in particular of attaching so much meaning around morality and ethics to sex and what we do to our body and that was just another way, another vehicle for controlling and criminalizing the Black body that when we choose to be like, "Yeah, I have a platonic friend that sometimes I let eat me out," and we're still platonic friends, and we high-five and just kick it.
Jasmine Banks: That is a powerful thing in the face of a nation that says, "In order to be a good citizen, you have to not have sexual intercourse so that you keep everyone healthy, and you only have one partner, and you track your children, and they're registered with the state," and you have a picket fence, right? We know that Black and Indigenous folks have never fit in that lens, and it's intentional because that is a social construct that will always keep us as other because our ancestors and our practices call us to a deeper, more abundant, more generous version of family and sex and expression.
Kenrya: Yes, bitch.
Erica: Yes. Bitch, I'm coming over for conversation and cornbread when the world open back up.
Jasmine Banks: My poor kids are going to be like, "My mom was a Black feminist, and she would show her friends her vulva, and it was normal."
Erica: I always wonder what our kids will remember about... There are certain things about growing up that I remember, and I'm convinced that my son is going to remember this summer as a summer of me sitting on the porch drinking, eating chicken and talking about my body parts.
Kenrya: That is what you did.
Erica: I literally sat on my porch and ordered chicken every three days and talked about sex. So, it's the thing. Now, I'm raising great people.
Jasmine Banks: I think they're going to be great. I think as long as it's normalized, it's like, "I'm sorry that your little white friends have parents that never have sex, but we fuck," and not only do we fuck, but it'll be the middle of their Saturday and be like, "Watch the baby and lock the door. We're going to go have sex, and yes, you're probably going to hear us." I actually just started this other practice when they're like, "We don't want to hear about that all the time," because they're embarrassed of us and the social norms of their peer groups. So, we've been like, "We're going to go have a Bible study."
Erica: Your kids are going to be invited to an actual Bible study, and they're going to freak the fuck out.
Jasmine Banks: They're going to be like, "This is not what it sounds like. Who are we calling ‘Daddy’ during this Bible study? When do we say, 'Yes, Daddy'?" Then the Christians are going to be like, "Do you mean Father God?" And Addison's going to be like, "I don't think so."
Erica: I mean, I heard God say it, but I don't know if that's what they're talking about.
Jasmine Banks: They're going to be so fucked up around religion. I'm going to be like, "I was just being slamming the spirit, okay?" And then Zara's going to be like, "What did that have to do with your butt?"
Erica: And there'll be no answers.
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, I actually just got one of our kiddos. They asked that we talked about masturbation very openly, and one of the kiddos was like, "I would some lube and a vibrator," and I was like, "Okay, yeah. Dope. I can get you one that's appropriate for your anatomy and for your age," and then they came back two weeks later like, "I need new batteries." I was like, "What the fuck?"
Erica: That's like keeping it under the pillow. Wait. I do. Let me shut up.
Kenrya: You do that.
Jasmine Banks: Like the Tooth Fairy will give you new batteries for your vibrator and mine.
Erica: But I think it's so important. I buy vibrators as graduation gifts for young girls now because... Well, I've only had an opportunity to buy it for young girls, but let's learn how to pleasure yourself, and this is just a thing that we do, and it doesn't have to be weird or gross or nasty or unless you want it to be. Unless you want it to be.
Jasmine Banks: The other day, the same kid had a really fantastic school trip and said, "Hey," and we talked about consent and all kinds of different, like how we negotiate space because we're a close-knit family, and we also know that privacy is important in how you practice masturbation. They announced, "I'm going to be in the bedroom for an hour, and it's going to be locked because I'm going to masturbate," comes back out, and I inquired, and I said, "Hey, it seemed like that was urgent, like you just made this declaration. What was going on?" The kiddo was like, "I had a really good day, and I just wanted to feel even better," and I was like, "I am done. Write papers on me. I am in the critical canon of teaching your child sexuality."
Erica: I love it.
Kenrya: Ooh, but it's interesting.
Erica: So, did a ribbon and a star dropp from the sky and get pinned to your shirt?
Jasmine Banks: Beyoncé came down and said, "I am so proud of you."
Kenrya: That was good.
Erica: I love it. That was good. You go, sister.
Jasmine Banks: She said, "I love you like you from Houston."
Kenrya: It was actually really good. Yeah, but the reality is, and I wonder if how much you do influence other parents, like I know for me, the first time that I had a conversation with my daughter about gender identity was off of something that you wrote online about how we need to talk to our kids about it. I think I've been having conversations with her about consent since she was very young in all of the ways, right? Not just framing it around sex, but when we go to the doctor's office, she has to give consent for them to be able to look at her body. For white people touching her hair, she has to give consent on whether or not she wants... because that was a whole thing.
Jasmine Banks: But she doesn't have to ask if she stabs them, like if she pulls out her shank-
Erica: No, she does not. She can do whatever the fuck she wants.
Jasmine Banks: They touch her hair.
Kenrya: [crosstalk 00:42:36] shank. Yeah, but we hadn't had any conversations about that. So, we did, and I asked her, "Who do you feel like?" She was like, "Well, what do you mean?" We had conversation. She's like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, no." She's like, "I'm a girl." I was like, "Okay, cool. I just want to check to make sure that I am living right and making sure that I'm taking care of you and providing the safety and the support that you need." So, I hope that you know that as you share your life with your kids and the way that you are open about sexuality and gender and sex with them that other folks and in your podcast, that other folks are absorbing that and learning from that.
Jasmine Banks: Yes, yes. So, we get messages all the time from Parenting is Political podcast listeners about like, "You're telling me to teach my child this? I didn't even know it about myself." So, we're doing this multi-generational transformation work, and I don't mean to say that we're intentionally, like it's planned and it's targeted, but I think that for me, when it came to... A lot of folks make meaning of what I share online and how I live my life so openly, and they frame it as though I'm attention-seeking, or I'm always looking for drama, or I'm trying to be some online celebrity, but I had to come to this place of reckoning around the accesses that I, like access points in my life, intersections in my life, and I'm light-skinned by I don't know what grace.
Jasmine Banks: I was the first-generation person to graduate from junior high or high school and neither of my parents have secondary or post-secondary education. I just have all these opportunities, and I'm sure a level of that is definitely colorism, and the level of that is also definitely having proximity to white family members, but when I thought about who I wanted to be in my life work around Black liberation, I knew that I had to make the choice to not be underground because those privileges that I had and the way that colorism is so fucked up, I could speak to audiences and hold and honor Blackness and still tell my story where some of my dark-skinned siblings can't do that, right? Does that make sense?
Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jasmine Banks: So, I chose to be really intentional and measured. I'm not as much as I appear to be. I don't just go on the internet and vomit everywhere and just be haphazard about things. I am often very strategic about what I do and what I don't share and how I share it, but sharing and telling your story has been the only way that I have healed and transformed and found deeper joy and deeper liberations because someone else told their story, and every time I look around, I don't see people telling my story, and I believe that Audre Lorde taught us that, right? If you don't see yourself in books that have been written, you have to write one. So, I look at my social media engagement and the stories that I tell in person and through digital mediums in that way, and I have written a book, but it's not published, but it's written.
Jasmine Banks: But yeah, like I hope that someone... I was interviewing George Johnson from “All Boys Aren't Blue,” and they were saying the same thing. They were saying, "I never saw a story this about myself, so I wrote it," and George also has the same kind of social media that I have where they're really reflective, and they really share these things that most people would hold with shame, and I don't like Eminem for various reasons, but I love his rap tactics that he starts playing the dozens on himself before whoever's in the rap battle can, right? He's like, "Yeah, I'm white. Yeah, I'm from the trailer. Yeah, I can't fuck. Yeah, I'm skinny," right? I think there's some power in that, like what does it call when you take someone's gun away from them, right?
Jasmine Banks: When you take their ammo away from them, ammunition, and then you take back power by naming those things about you. So, yeah, I mean, it's been a defense strategy, it's been an offensive strategy, and it's been a strategy that I hope invites deeper community and conversation. I'm not trying to say I'm right because I've grown so much. I'm not the most expert on whatever critical analysis of X, Y, and Z, but I do practice every single day to be less wrong about the things that I think.
Kenrya: That's all you can fucking ask for, right?
Jasmine Banks: Mm-hmm (affirmative), and I'm a good lay.
Erica: Hey. Another gold star.
Kenrya: Which leads me to ask you what three words describe sex in your 30s.
Jasmine Banks: Sex in my 30s. What I just do with sex in my 30s is a hard question. It has been juicy and restorative. Man, you said three words?
Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, and playful.
Kenrya: Yes, okay.
Erica: Fantastic because that sounds amazing, and I was about to say lit, L-I-T. Lit. That's what it says.
Jasmine Banks: Yes. It has been lit. So, I’m married to Mo. It is a love marriage, but it also was a tactical marriage because we live in Arkansas and Mo is nonbinary and queer, and I'm queer, and we need some state protections in order to function in this community, especially because our daughter is trans and so it makes it even more complicated. So, Mo has been such a fun partner to experience a second adolescence with. So, queer people often don't have the room in our younger years, develop psychosocial development years to really unpack and experiment and play. There's so much social pressure about staying closeted or having shame or all kinds of variables, and I would say the same for Black folks, even Black folks who aren't queer. It's not safe for us often to experiment and go through those developmental milestones that white young people do at their little keg parties and whatever.
Jasmine Banks: So, I've been experiencing second adolescence with Mo, and that's been really, really fun, and then we transitioned into this more secure sex practice. That's less about experimentation and more about us developing our own deep identity. We'd be like, "Okay, so what was something that we tried that wasn't... " Oh, so in kink, there are folks who like to induce vomiting by deep-throating, like extreme deep-throating to the point where it introduces vomiting. So, that was one of the first things that we experimented with around kink because gagging was sexy for me, and we learned very quickly that gagging is nice. When things come up after the gagging, that's a no-go. That's like a-
Jasmine Banks: I'm not kink shaming, but that's something that we experimented with throwing away, and now, we're just practicing holding each other in a really incredible way in our sex play, and then with my other partners, it's just been so good. I have two other women partners that I... Mo’s nonbinary, but I have two other Black women partners that I have sexual experiences with, and I just broke up with my girlfriend because she was garbage, but we did have a really good sex life, but she just needs to get her life together. She's probably listening to this. Get your life together, Megan.
Erica: Oh, shit. Pow-pow.
Jasmine Banks: So, it's great because with each of my partners, I'm not expected to take on any kind of heteronormative role, right? People usually assume because I'm more femme-presenting that I'm the bottom or the person who gets penetrated in my relationship with Mo, but no, I'm Daddy in that relationship, and then I have another sexual relationship where we're both femmes. We're both high femmes, and it's just a completely different level. I have another sexual relationship where it's just all erotica, and it's all text, and I love writing and words and reading, and I just really, really love that medium. So, to have someone that I could have sexting with and then masturbate or not has also been really incredible.
Jasmine Banks: So, it's just very fun. COVID threw a wrench in lots of plans, but I'm learning that during a part of my life, I did some sex work, and I did some cam work as a part of that sex work, and I was like, "Oh, I have these skills. They're coming back. Okay."
Erica: It's like riding a bike.
Jasmine Banks: You ain't going to keep me down, COVID. So, that has been really fun, and then also with COVID, like distance play toys that have Bluetooth or function over, those have also been very helpful.
Erica: Tell us about a sexual experience that you remember fondly.
Jasmine Banks: Because of how I am a dom top in my BDSM life, I really, really, really appreciate bottoms and subs that that need extra care, aftercare. So, I had an experience with a person who was bottoming for me who had never really felt safe to have a climax because she was a squirter. So, part of the care that I was able to provide for her was around clean up and clean up for her and aftercare, and I bought a special mat and tool that helps to protect the bed, but doesn't make it feel like, "Oh, you're a medical case, and this is weird," right? It was seamless as far as the environment and the scene went, and she got to climax, and she ejaculated, and then we got to do this care work afterwards. That was really fulfilling for me.
Jasmine Banks: So, when I show up in BDSM space and get to do aftercare, it gives me this really lovely sexual high around nurturing and aftercare. If you're not familiar with BDSM, that might seem a little weird and confusing, but-
Erica: You know what? Actually, that's one of the things about BDSM that I find beautiful is the intentionality of the aftercare part. So, yeah, if you're not familiar with it, then you probably should be getting a little more familiar with this, so you're not just leaving your partner on the bed underneath the sheet alone. You know?
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, yeah, because subspace can be definitely hard, that rebound. It was with a different person, but another really fun one that I got to do was someone who really, really liked to be shocked, and I didn't realize how much I like to shock people, but I do.
Erica: Learn new shit every day.
Jasmine Banks: My rising is Scorpio, so that's what I thought I must have been channeling.
Kenrya: That makes sense.
Erica: That makes sense.
Jasmine Banks: Like the sting and the pain.
Kenrya: So, we have a pretty good idea of what your sex life looks like now, but on average, how many times do you have some sort of sexual contact in a week?
Jasmine Banks: Gosh. I talked to you about this for another piece that you did. It's had an uptick recently. Before whenever I was traveling and I could see my people in New York with my play partners, then I... That was multiple times a day. Now though, because of COVID, it's probably four or five times a week unless I have someone that comes to visit, or we do a video chat. Then it's a weirdly large number out of the typical norm because it's multiple partners.
Kenrya: Are there, I guess along those lines, certain times of day that you prefer to have sex? Like, "I like to have sex in the morning."
Jasmine Banks: I remember you telling me about that, and I was confused.
Kenrya: Why are you confused?
Jasmine Banks: Because I'm not a morning person, but I did have a sexual partner recently that made me motivated enough to wake up a couple of days out of the week to have morning sex with her. Today, Mo text me in between a meeting and was like, "Hey, do you have time to have sex?" That was really nice and fun. I like midday sex. At this point with homeschooling with COVID and working from home and the white supremacist in chief and everything else, like the race war that we all need to grab our machetes for very soon. I get tired at night. So, now, my sex life has shifted to the daytime, and if we don't get it in on the weekday, it's like our kids don't see us for a couple of hours on the weekends.
Kenrya: Got to make up time. That's why I like morning sex because I'm always really fucking tired by the end of the day, but also morning is not really for me.
Jasmine Banks: Okay. Well, you make the morning-
Erica: It's just first-thing-in-your-day sex.
Jasmine Banks: What does that mean?
Kenrya: Because on the weekends, it's like 10 or 11 o'clock, especially if my daughter is at her dad's.
Jasmine Banks: You get to sleep in until 11 o'clock?
Kenrya: If she's not home, which is only twice a month for 48 hours, but I take advantage of it.
Jasmine Banks: I'll trade that for a couple of my sex sessions. Let me sleep until 10:00, somebody.
Kenrya: Yeah. I mean, it doesn't happen often, but when it does, I take it, and then if I can roll over and have sex, it don't get too much better than that.
Erica: See? Just logistically, what about your breath?
Kenrya: We just don't breathe in each other's faces. I mean, shit. It's a lot of weight when you have sex that don't involve... on your nose. We're considerate, but I don't care. I want to-
Jasmine Banks: Also, bodies have smells, and it's whatever. You don't need to be so fresh and so clean, clean. Bodies just-
Kenrya: Listen, I wake up juicy. I like-
Erica: I've [crosstalk 00:58:11] now a marinated puss is-
Kenrya: Is a good puss.
Erica: A good puss. It's like baked over. It's been baking overnight like a warm baked potato.
Jasmine Banks: I still sleep with my hands between my thighs. I do. I've done it since I was a child. So, if I lubricate at all and I wake up, I just rub it on Mo's face.
Kenrya: Like, "Hey, good morning."
Jasmine Banks: And then because we're that crunchy queer couple, Mo be like, "It smells like you're about to ovulate." I'm like, "Shut the fuck up. That's not what you say."
Erica: I love it. I love it.
Kenrya: As do I. All right. Let's see. Oh, how long do your sex sessions typically last?
Jasmine Banks: Oh, man, if it's a scene, it can be a couple of hours. If it's just typical vanilla sex, that's usually shorter. That's an hour or less.
Erica: Okay. Where do you usually do it?
Jasmine Banks: Our scenes are usually in our room. If the kids are gone, it's like fair play game. I broke the car window because there was sex happening, and I broke the windshield with my foot because I was pressing on it hard.
Kenrya: I'm sorry. You didn't get hurt, did you?
Erica: So, when you break... Do you just commit at this point, just keep going or did you-
Jasmine: I mean, there ain't shit you can do about it right then, right?
Erica: Okay. Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Jasmine Banks: What's been done has been done.
Kenrya: Yeah, you didn't get hurt.
Jasmine Banks: Mm-mm (negative). It didn't shatter. It just spidered it.
Kenrya: Oh, yeah.
Jasmine Banks: Now, I got to fix my wife's window.
Kenrya: I mean, that you can have sex.
Erica: Somebody was making it rain. A good hail storm. What's the best part of your sex life right now?
Jasmine Banks: The best part of my sex life harkens back to my history that doesn't feel coercive. It feels very held and free, and just I really love that Mo, the partner that I have most immediate access to, really likes eating my ass. That's so nice. I really love that, and then also because sex is about reciprocity and this third space you create between you. I really like that because Mo is a nonbinary person who's doing a lot of work for themselves around body and sexuality, coming also from Christianity, that I get to be a safe space for practice around experimenting how gender expression and identity intersect with sexual expression and identity. That has been really, really fun, and I love having a nonbinary partner because it never feels like I'm with a set gender or a gender at all.
Jasmine Banks: It's just like this is Mo's version of nonbinary, and we get to make of it what we want. So, if Mo's like, "Hey, can I get a dildo that squirts and can I cum on your face?" I'm like, "Yes."
Jasmine Banks: Let's do that.
Erica: Let's explore.
Jasmine Banks: So, it's great. I hope it's like what the future of sex is for so many of us that even those who are not queer or those who are not trans can figure out blueprints for play and erogenous experience. It's not just about all that boring stuff you see on Pornhub.
Erica: Yes. What's the most frustrating part?
Jasmine Banks: That I can't travel because I have people I need to fuck.
Erica: Fuck you, COVID.
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, it gets to the point where I want to protect the herd and then also I need to go to Alabama to see somebody. I'm really, really trying to be a good relative and not travel and go places.
Erica: But it's just those junk has needs.
Jasmine Banks: Well, eight months is a long time to be away from a partner.
Erica: Yeah, for sure. How often do you masturbate?
Jasmine Banks: Every day.
Erica: Every day, yeah, and what's your favorite technique? Do you have one?
Jasmine Banks: I'm a friction kind of person, and it's always my hand. I have all kinds of toys and tools whenever I was active as a Just Jasmine blogger, which is still my blog, still exists. I would get all kinds of different free products, and then I just love sex shops, and I collect things, but I just have never found anything that I enjoy as much as my hands. Also, it might be just about logistics because I always masturbate first thing when I wake up no matter what, and I don't want to get up and walk to my closet and open a bin and figure out what I want. So, maybe it's also that I'm lazy. It's the Taurus in me. It's my Taurus moon.
Kenrya: Oh, yeah, I was married to a Taurus. That's the whole thing. Why every day? What does that do for you to start your day in that way?
Jasmine Banks: Honestly, it might be for everyone else because I'm nicer, less murderous. I feel energized. I'm ready to get up and do things afterwards. It's activating.
Erica: It's a power-up button.
Kenrya: Do you ever have any trouble turning off the day and focusing on bodily pleasure?
Jasmine Banks: Totally, totally. As a person who's survived childhood and adult sexual assault, dissociation is a huge part of how I balance things, and especially dissociating from anything that's about being in my body. So, I've had to create practices and norms where I invite myself to be inside my body, and masturbation has been one of those ways, and then lingerie and anything that's experiential and tactile that I can put on my body also is a meditative practice that calls me into space with myself. So, it's complicated. So, even if I don't have a busy day, that is definitely a learning edge that I have.
Erica: If you could snap your fingers and change one thing, what would you change about your sex life?
Jasmine Banks: I would be able to get people pregnant.
Erica: Babies for everyone.
Jasmine Banks: Wow, that's an interesting question. I don't know if I would really change anything. No. I would. Okay, so I would change how complicated it is to be a relationship anarchist, a person who's poly in my sexual expression in life because it often feels like that heterosexual vanilla couples just get such an easy script to follow, and they don't have these 4,000 fucking conversations with people in order to get some head.
Erica: But here's the thing. Part of the problem is that's what be fucking us up.
Jasmine Banks: That's true.
Erica: That's [crosstalk 01:06:14] us. That's what fucks it up. I think what makes it outside looking in, but I know it's like a, "Fuck. I got to... " But-
Jasmine Banks: Sometimes, I get a little tired. I'm like, "Is there a hand signal where I can just be like please?" I mean, I know we have sign language for it, but just a single-hand gesture like, "Let's do anal, but I don't want to be partners, and I'm not trying to steal your... I'm not trying to do anything nefarious. I just think you might be fun to do anal with.”
Erica: That would be... Okay. You got to come up with a-
Kenrya: Are you making up a...
Erica: I'm doing my Walter Machado.
Jasmine Banks: No. This is the... Anyway.
Erica: We have to have video for now [crosstalk 01:07:14].
Kenrya: We got to start using video.
Jasmine Banks: We're ridiculous. So, are y'all going to come to Parenting is Political to talk about sex and parenting?
Kenrya: Yes, if you'll have us.
Erica: Yeah, yeah.
Jasmine Banks: Cool, cool.
Kenrya: Before we do that, can you tell us what is a sex best practice that you want to share with our listeners?
Jasmine Banks: I have so many.
Kenrya: Give us what you want.
Jasmine Banks: Oh my gosh. This was my Miss America question. All right. So, I would say a best practice that I commit to is understanding that sex is about an experience, not a performance, and in so many ways, it doesn't have to be, "Did I do this good? Did I do this bad? Did you climax? Did you not?" And embracing these binaries, but checking in with people like, "Did you feel listened to? Did you experience pleasure that you could recognize? Did you feel as though you could communicate to me? Did you have fun?" Those things, like normalizing those questions doesn't make it any less sexy, and it actually opens up opportunities of deeper sex play and engagement because then folks feel safe and seen to give more details about what they want. It becomes even more juicy at that point.
Jasmine Banks: I have had partners in the past who when we tried those practices, we're like, "I just feel like we're doing an exit survey, and I don't like that, and it just feels like you're grading me or I'm grading you, and we shouldn't do that." So, normalizing an open communication is just really, really critical because it's that safety and communication that allows us to negotiate boundaries and consent and desire, and those are all foundational to having an enjoyable sexual experience.
Erica: Do you have any must-use tools?
Jasmine Banks: Uberlube is one of my favorites, and I think that folks who... How is it? Well, this is what I'm going to say. Cis women who are not queer definitely need to try an internal dildo. It's a dildo that has a hook or a bulb that you insert into your vaginal canal, and it can vibrate or can't vibrate, but I want cis women masturbating by putting the internal dildo and putting a shit ton of lube and rubbing the dong while literally stimulating and get into it. I think that is a must-have experience. We first introduced that tool to be supportive of some of the habits of Mo's dysphoria or some of the ways that Mo's dysphoria was showing up, but at one point, I was like, "Why is this just for a nonbinary person who needs to see themselves like gender expansive? I'm going to try this," and I masturbated with, and I was like, "Next level. Next level."
Kenrya: Next level?
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, so if you have the anatomy... Language is just so problematic, but say I'm talking to Erica, and I'm assuming you have a vulva, and I'm assuming you like to stroke dick, why not stroke your own while playing with your clitoris?
Erica: Girl, I'm online right now. I'm about to buy my own. Like bitch, I'm literally looking online right now to purchase-
Jasmine Banks: And then the bulb, which is used to secure the person who's wearing the internal dildo acts as a mechanism for you to feel full, and then it vibrates. It also hit your G-spot, and I'm like...
Kenrya: Yeah, we may need you to send us the link when we finish.
Erica: No, I'm looking, and you will approve before I press in. Thanks. Okay. Would you rather give up partner sex or masturbation?
Jasmine Banks: Partner sex, hands down.
Erica: Oh, yes.
Kenrya: [inaudible 01:11:57].
Erica: I'm lazy, but yeah. I like it.
Kenrya: Yeah, you're like, "You mean, they get to do the work? Yeah, I'll stick with partnered sex."
Kenrya: What do you hope that people learn from this walk through your sex life?
Jasmine Banks: I just hope that folks can take away that even those of us who have our bodies and our sexualities and our sexual experiences as sites of extreme trauma and suffering and even shame that we don't have to throw away sexuality and sexual experience and that in community and through embodied healing, we can transform and have different memories and different ways of being in relationship with our bodies and others and the intersections of sexuality and sexual practice. I really hope that comes through, and I also hope that it comes through that you can be a dope-ass parent and caretaker and really like to fuck and really like kink and really do all sorts of expansive things around sex.
Kenrya: Yeah, I think they're going to get that.
Jasmine Banks: I hope so.
Kenrya: Yeah, well done. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Jasmine Banks: Thank you for having me. I hope you're not jealous that Erica's my new best friend.
Kenrya: So, here's the thing.
Erica: Here's the problem. You say that, but then there's a lot of responsibility that comes with this. So, yeah, you're going to be like, "Damn." I mean, yeah. So, is this the one I need to be buying?
Kenrya: Those hormone shots she was getting, I was the one giving her them shits.
Jasmine Banks: Yes, that's a great starter, and you see the ridges? It also can rub your... gets clitoral contact.
Erica: Yeah, they have another one. They have the little bunny, but I feel like I'd freak out with all that stimulation.
Jasmine Banks: Yeah, that, when that has the ridges is nice because it's got an angle that you can bend the shaft part a little bit away and get your hand down enough to give yourself the physical contact around clitoral stimulation. So...
Erica: Dink, dink.
Kenrya: Okay, send it to me.
Erica: Thanks, bestie. Sorry, Kenrya.
Kenrya: It's fine. Where can other people who want to be your bestie find you online?
Jasmine Banks: Well, applications for best friends are closed. I peaked at Erica. So, @ParentingIsPolitical on Instagram is the best place to connect.
Kenrya: And then the website is ParentingIsPolitical.org?
Jasmine Banks: That is correct, and we have all of our podcasts there and email and newsletter and people can subscribe and all that jazz, but people think that just because I be really personal that I want them to follow me on my personal social media, like my Jasmine, Instagram, and every once while, I get the streak of Virgo, I feel bad because I'm not being nice to people. So, I'll let them in, and then three weeks later, my list is cut down again.
Erica: Who the fuck is this? Who's this person? Yeah.
Kenrya: Yeah, so y'all head over to the Parenting is Political accounts and follow her there, and that's it for this week's episode of The Turn On. Thank y'all so much for listening. We'll talk to you next week.
Erica: Peace out.
Erica: This episode was produced by us, Erica and Kenrya, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme music is from Brazy. Now, you can support The Turn On and get off. Subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app. Then drop us a five-star review, and you'll be entered to win something that's turning us on. Post your review and email us a screenshot at TheTurnOnPodcast@gmail.com to enter. Our Patreon page is also live. Become a supporter today and access lots of goodies, including two-for-one raffle entries. Don't forget to send us your book recommendations and sex and related questions and follow us on Twitter at @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram at @TheTurnOnPodcast. You can find links to books, merch, transcripts, guest info, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you soon. Holla.
The Turn On
The Turn On is a podcast for Black people who want to get off. To open their minds. To learn. To be part of a community. To show that we love and fuck too, and it doesn't have to be political or scandalous or dirty. Unless we want it to be.