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Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES In Episode 4.5 of The Turn On, we interview Rebel Miller, the author of "Awakening," about world building and sex scenes as character development. Resources:
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information. TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Come here, get off. Kenrya: Today we're chatting with Rebel Miller, author of Awakening, the first book in the Realm series, which we read an excerpt from in the last episode. Rebel Miller is a fiction author who writes gripping romances about charismatic leaders who often turn social conventions on their heads. Rebel earned a graduate degree in communications and culture from Ryerson University and an undergraduate degree from the University of the West Indies. Rebel, plus hubby and sons, lives in the outskirts of Toronto, Canada, and enjoys overindulging in Pinot Grigio and caramel popcorn. Erica: Yes. Kenrya: And binges on an eclectic mix of movies, music, and angst filled romance novels. Rebel, thanks so much for talking to us today. Rebel Miller: Well, thanks for having me. Kenrya: Yeah. We're excited that you're here and Erica is especially excited about this Pinot Grigio and caramel popcorn. Rebel Miller: Whoa. Erica: Oh, I read that and said we could totally spend a weekend together. Rebel Miller: Oh, for sure. Are you kidding me? That my go to, my go to. Kenrya: I don't like either one of those things. Rebel Miller: What? Kenrya: I feel like... I don't. Rebel Miller: Okay. You don't know what good Pinot Grigio is. That's the problem. Kenrya: I don't drink wine. I don't know how to live. Rebel Miller: You don't drink wine. Kenrya: I'm living wrong. Rebel Miller: Okay. Kenrya: I'm not a wine person. Yeah. And I don't like Carmel. I'm weird. It's fine. I'm okay with it. Kenrya: Oh, before we get started, what are your preferred pronouns? Rebel Miller: Preferred pronouns? Oh, she, her, that kind of thing. Kenrya: Yep. Rebel Miller: Yep. Kenrya: Exactly that. Okay. Erica and I are both she and her as well. Rebel Miller: Excellent. Erica: So, we read your bio and, again, me too on the Pinot Grigio and caramel popcorn. But I want to hear how you describe what you do. So, can you tell me in one sentence what is it that you do? Rebel Miller: I guess... one sentence, I write romances that speak to today's romance reader, and that person is living in a world where diversity is pretty much the norm and kind of trying to talk about identity in a different way. Yeah. Erica: That's great. Did you always want to be an author? Rebel Miller: It's so funny. I've always been a writer. So, I've done public relations in my lifetime. I do like consulting in that type of realm. And then, it was really five years ago, so what is that, 2014, 2015 actually, that it just occurred to me, you know what? The time is now. I've thought about it when I was in my early twenties and writing and I just didn't feel that I was emotionally ready. I didn't know what I had to say, kind of what I could add to the various romances or just fiction in general. Rebel Miller: And then, as I got older, I had the two kids and my husband. I had more life experience behind me. I started to feel like, you know what? I was like, you know what? I think I do have something to say. And, of course, I've been reading romances all my life. Right? Like I remember being like... what was I, under ten and hiding in my mother's closet with a romance. Kenrya: Yo, same. Rebel Miller: What can I say? Kenrya: I've read through like all of Danielle's Steel's books. Rebel Miller: Oh, yeah. Kenrya: Starting in the second grade. I'm like, it's so highly inappropriate. But like second, third, and fourth grade I was consumed with Danielle Steel. Rebel Miller: Really? Exactly. Kenrya: So wrong. Rebel Miller: But they're great. That's the thing about romance novels. I think a lot of people... it's changing now, I think, especially with E-reading. I think people are viewing romances a little different because they're kind of open more open to it and willing to read it. Rebel Miller: I remember giving a seminar or a talk about my books and I said, people turn their nose up at romance every now and then, but then I'm like, when you go to Walmart, what are the books filling up those shelves? Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Rebel Miller: Romance. I was like, who's reading them? So- Erica: Yeah, that's right. Rebel Miller: It's fulfilling the demand. Of course people love romance. You know? Kenrya: What do you think changed? Why do you think it's like more out in the open now? Rebel Miller: Well, I'm not sure. With the publishing industry and the Internet, there's been a lot of disruption, I'm sure you ladies know, in terms of a lot of writers being able to get their work out there. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Rebel Miller: And what I noticed is, of course, you've got a lot more writers doing that. And then, because you're reading on your E-books or your mobile devices, not everybody knows that you're reading a romance. So, I think you can be on the train, or the subway, or the bus reading a romance now, whereas before I remember having to hide the book cover kind of. Erica: Yes. Rebel Miller: I didn't want anybody to see. And now, it's not a problem. You can kind of get away with that indulgence. Like you download two books at once and you just kind of keep ripping through them. And so, I think there's just so many things in the industry changing, people changing. Look at diversity nowadays and people just thinking, I'm interested in learning more and being a little bit more free with kind of my thoughts, and my thinking, and love in general. Right? Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Kenrya: Yeah. That's what's up. I'm thinking, even kind of to that point about how so many more folks can really get out there and get their work out there, I think you are a really great example of that. And a quick look at your website even makes it clear that, beyond being a writer, you're a business woman. Like you can buy your books on your site, T-shirts, pillows, mugs, all kinds of branded stuff. I'm wondering what led you to start your own company and self-publish? Rebel Miller: Yeah. So, for sure, I think any writer starting out thinks, well, do I go traditional, meaning with maybe the big publishers? Or do I do it myself? And, for me, I think I had a comfort level with my PR background already writing, understanding what goes into a production of a piece or a product that I could handle it on my own. And then, there was the whole idea of do I really want to go through years of rejection probably, or to get my voice heard? And the truth is, my novels are different. I mean, they are erotic romance, which is always great. Hot, sticky romance will always get you pretty far. Erica: Yes. Rebel Miller: But they take a different turn in terms of the... I try to tackle social issues in a way that are a little bit different. These novels, for example, Awakening, the first and the trilogy, it's a futuristic trilogy. So, that's not something that I think the mainstream publisher would be ready to understand or willing to understand. And I think I made the right choice going self-publishing because you always find your tribe, right? Those people who are interested in... there's some group of people for everybody. So, in doing it on my own, I was able to find that group on my own. So, it worked out. Kenrya: So, I mean, it's interesting that you mentioned, and I mean, to us, like the whole reason that we picked your book is because we're in awe of this like whole ass universe that you build with this series. Rebel Miller: Oh, good. Kenrya: Yeah. I mean, that type of world building usually is reserved for like dystopian YA novels, right? It's like The Hunger Games and all of those kinds of things. And it's really impressive how you created this entire, like I said, not just a world, but a universe that these folks and Kira and all of her ilk inhabit. Because we just read an excerpt for the show, of course, can you give us kind of a quick overview of the setting for the action in Awakening? Rebel Miller: For sure. So, the world building was something that I decided on pretty deliberately early on in deciding whether or not I wanted to write a romance that was contemporary, historical, or futuristic. And I did futuristic specifically for that reason. I said, I don't really know many... at least I wasn't aware of it at the time, erotic novels or eromances that were diverse in this way and set in the future in this way. Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Rebel Miller: And I really enjoyed the opportunity to develop my own culture and my own kind of society. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Rebel Miller: So, for The Realm, it's a society that's made up of a number of worlds. And the worlds are grouped into dominions. So, there are five of them. And I guess the biggest part that makes it different, besides it being in the future, is the fact that society is based on a caste or social class system. And there are four in this particular series. Rebel Miller: So, there's the lowest caste, which is the subordinate caste. And then, above that- Kenrya: Right. That's where Kira is. Rebel Miller: That's where Kira is. And then, you have the protectorate caste, which are, of course, the protectors, kind of what you would call our military. And that's where the other part of her love triangle ties. Kenrya: Right. Rebel Miller: It ties to that group. Above that would be the Senate. And those are the senators, and they're kind of like the government officials. And that's where Gannon is, the other part of that love triangle. And at the top, of course, is the elite. So, you've got these four different castes. And there is kind of a spoken/unspoken rule that you don't really have relationships between certain castes. So, the upper two castes, of course, they're free to do what they want. And the lower two are able to do the same. And it gets tricky with this love triangle because, of course, you've got Kira in love with men from different castes and one of them is considered forbidden. Rebel Miller: So, it adds to the whole kind of tension to the book. And it also kind of talks about society in a different way. Because what I liked about setting it up in this way is that it wasn't so much about sexual orientation or race that people were discriminating against, it was more against the caste. So, you'll find a lot of fluidity in the characters in terms of who they love, how many people they love, because there's polyamory, which I call multiples in this case in the novel. But that's normal. That's okay. It's more about what role you've been predetermined to fill and that you should stay in that particular box. So, it takes you on a journey about her deciding, well, am I going to stay in the box or not? Can I just be free to love who I love or do I want to follow the rules? Kenrya: Wow. Erica: Where did you start with writing this? You said you were deliberate about the decision to make it futuristic and map out, set a new environment. But where did you start? Was it character or location? Rebel Miller: Yeah. So, I definitely started with character. As a writer, you ladies know, you always say is it character or plot? Right? Which one comes first? And, for me, I've discovered that I think it's more character. Of course, in a year from now, it might change to plot. But I see the characters. If you've got a great character, someone who someone can resonate with, they see themselves in, and kind of can root for, then you're so interested in seeing what they do next. Erica: Right. Rebel Miller: So, once I had the girl, the protagonist in mind, I was able to say, okay. Well, where do I want to put her? Right? And that's where I said, well, this is where I want to kind of take a challenge and put her in a different setting that I don't think anybody has ever seen before. Erica: Cool. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: What was the most difficult part of creating the series? Rebel Miller: That's a good question. Probably... I don't know. It's so hard. I don't know if I can say there was a difficult part of creating it. It was so much fun to write, that's the thing. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Rebel Miller: The thing about writing, and I tell people all the time, you come up with an idea of how you want it to end up, and then it changes as you go. Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Rebel Miller: I think that's great. It comes down to the character. And that's why I say the character bosses me around and says, no, I wouldn't do that. So, I really have to go, okay. Well, you pivot, and you pivot, and you pivot in the storyline. You say, well, how am I bringing that to a particular end that makes sense for the people and that honors kind of the readers and what their expectations are and what I've set up for it? So, I think it was just pivoting all the time. Just going, okay. Well, book two, this is not where we wanted to go, but this is how it's going to be interesting and how it's still to be proximate, and still really drive the story. Kenrya: Wow. I mean, I think it comes through and especially that attention to who that character is. Like I very, very early, even when we met Kira when she was younger I was already in, or I was like, okay. Rebel Miller: Oh, good. Kenrya: I see who she is. I'm interested in learning more. Oh, she can't come? What's happening there? Like I want to know what's going on. And, as things unfold and things get scary sometimes, I was never really able to put it down because I was so totally drawn into her world, not just where she lived, but internally. Because she dealt with so many external and internal conflicts and you really care about where she lands in each one of those. So, I thought that was pretty dope. And, speaking of which, as we read in your bio, you said you're fond of creating characters who step outside of the expected. I'm wondering how that manifests for you in Awakening. Rebel Miller: So, for me, it definitely was the whole relationship between her and the two men. So, I played with the idea of... I talked about polyamory being a normal... it's accepted now but in more of a mainstream accepted in this futuristic setting that that was never an issue. It was an option. So, for her, I wanted her to have multiple challenges and conflicts, as you say. It's, well I could be with one man, or I could be with both men, but can I be with that guy if that guy doesn't want me to be with that person. Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Rebel Miller: And then there's the whole restricted caste thing. My parents aren't going to like this at all. Kenrya: You know they got they own situation going on. Rebel Miller: Then they have they own situation going on. And then, the hypocrisy there. I really enjoyed writing about the hypocrisy piece. Erica: Yeah. I was like... like when her heart stopped. Rebel Miller: That's a bad one. Kenrya: I was like, you have got to be kidding. I mean, it's not like you didn't foreshadow it and we got to see her friend with her partners, but it was still really like, oh, okay. I felt that. Rebel Miller: That's right. That's right. So, it was really manifesting in terms of her kind of stepping out of the box, turning tradition on its head because she's saying, I have all this choice. It's really up to me. It's now up to me in terms of what I do. And I think, when you look at today in the media or just in society with diversity and then Me Too and women's empowerment and how we're kind of coming into our own, I thought that was a really good message. Because I think there's an opportunity for people to say, okay. Yeah, we're getting empowered, we are empowered as women. And now, what do I do with all of it? Now it's all on me, right?, to decide how my life is going to live, who I'm going to love. So, I like doing it that way. Erica: Cool. So, in the book it's very clear that Kira owns her own power, but she's also drawn to very powerful men. So, I kind of want to twist this question around to you. I know you're married, but what are you most attracted to in a potential sexual partner? We'll take this back to the pre-marriage Rebel. Or partner in general, I guess, right? Rebel Miller: Yeah. So, I am a heterosexual woman. So, I guess, of course, I'd want a man. I think he'd have to be someone who... I guess I look at my husband and see what I ended up and I think that was the ideal person. He's strong, but he's able to be very compassionate, very passionate as well. Very much a person who is a family person. But, at the same time, when we talk about the romance and all that, he gets it. He's turned on by it. He thinks he is the inspiration for my novels. Kenrya: He's like, I'll take that credit, thanks. Erica: That's me. That's me. That's me. Rebel Miller: [inaudible 00:17:07]. So, I like a guy who is able to see himself as a partner, a supporter of the woman that he's with. And I think, we talk about women being empowered and who they are, and the next book I'm writing really touches on... it's Ascendance, which will be the fourth book in the series, talks about the men being in a subordinate position and the woman being in the elite position and how he is still considered a man in supporting a woman who is in a higher, powerful position. So, that one is very interesting as I'm writing that one. Kenrya: Is that going to be with Leanna? Rebel Miller: And Kira's brother. Erica: Oh. Kenrya: Oh. Get out. And see, I ain't get that far. Okay. That's exciting. Rebel Miller: A little sneaky. Kenrya: Okay. Y'all heard it here first. Erica: So, Rebel, have you ever been torn between two people like Kira has? Rebel Miller: Wow. Good question. You know what, no. I wish I had been. Erica: Well, you wrote it very well. Rebel Miller: This is my fantasy. Erica: Right? Rebel Miller: Well, this is it, it's my fantasy. I think that's what it's made into. You're inspired by the things that happen sometimes and things that maybe you wish could happen. Right? Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Kenrya: I'm trying to think, have I ever been... Rebel Miller: Have you been in a love triangle? Kenrya: I don't think I ever have, but I've always been like a super duper serial monogamist. So like I get blinders once I am like fully in with somebody. So, I guess, no. Rebel Miller: Yeah. I know what you mean. Erica: I mean, I have, but I don't know if it was really like true love or just me like being a hoe. But that wasn't really for me. I mean, but either way, it was fun. Kenrya: I mean, that's the- Rebel Miller: I want to add to that because I think we don't know... like we're not open to necessarily being with more than one on a regular basis. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Yeah. Rebel Miller: You know what I mean? Like if we thought it was an option, maybe we would realize we were in love triangles more than we do. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: And I might have been in a few and not known it. Well, you know what, for fact, I know I had some and didn't know until later, after the fact. Like, oh shit, you. Okay. Kenrya: Yeah. Yeah. Now that you say that, I mean I was married to a whole ass cheating husband, so I guess I was. Well now, that's a new perspective. Damn. Okay. Oh, so another thing that we're interested in is, you said that in the very beginning you were trying to figure out was this going to be present day, historical, was it going to be futuristic. What draws you to like the speculative fiction? And also, part two of that, what draws you to writing about the erotic? Rebel Miller: Oh, yeah. So, I've always read more of the erotic romances, unfortunately, that was yes, when I was under ten. That's when it started. Kenrya: Details. Rebel Miller: Don't tell my mother. I didn't know that. You know what it was, why I'm drawn to erotic romance? I have read those romances that are not erotic. And I always felt like I was missing part of the story. That when they faded to black, for example, and you don't get the love scene or if you got the love scene and they kind of glossed over it. Kenrya: I mean, that's so annoying. Rebel Miller: I felt like I was missing a big part of the story. So I, without a doubt, knew I was going to write an erotic romance because in my love scenes you're seeing it's not just, boom chicka boom chicka wow wow. Erica: Right. Rebel Miller: Now we just cut from the story and then get back to the story. It's really taking a person from the beginning of the love scene, in an explicit hot, passionate one, to another part of their emotion at the end of it. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Absolutely. Rebel Miller: So, they can kind of go through a process of development throughout it. So, it's not just the sex, but it is the development of the characters and how they felt from the beginning to the end. So, I knew I wanted to keep that because I thought, sex is a really, really good thing. And it tells you so much. You speak. It's a language on its own that you can kind of can communicate with a partner. And, of course, as a reader you kind of understand more about them and how they interact and you just learn so much more about that way. It's a very intimate part of the whole story. Kenrya: Yeah. Rebel Miller: That I don't think... Kenrya: And it's a time when people are vulnerable in a way that they usually aren't. Right? Rebel Miller: Yeah. That's right. That's when you usually let down a lot of your guard and show who you really are. Kenrya: It makes sense to me. And then, the other part of that question is, what drew you to this futuristic setting? Rebel Miller: I wanted the chance to develop my own world. So, I wanted to be able to create languages, to create a system, a technology, kind of governance and law of cultural kind of references that people like myself who are avid readers can really get immersed into the story even farther. So, it's not just a romance, it's really you're part of something. That, if you're reading this book, you're kind of part of that. You know what the Realm series is about. You get those little quotes when somebody talks about Solomon or something like that, you know? Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Rebel Miller: Like that's what they use for time-lapse when they travel. It kind of brings you together as a community of readers around a particular storyline. So, I thought it was just a great way to immerse the readers in the book even more. Kenrya: Yeah. It's effective, for sure. So, I'm interested in what you're reading outside of your own work right now. Rebel Miller: Yeah. So, I read a lot of different things, not necessarily just romance, but like thrillers, you know James Rollins, Dan Brown, stuff like that. But in terms of romance, I was reading Sylvia Day quite a bit, and for more erotic romance, there was some Jane Ryland stuff. I read anything I can get my hands on really. Kenrya: Same. Rebel Miller: I find, when I'm writing though, it kind of gets slowed down because you're so focused on any time you have to actually get some thoughts on some quote unquote paper. Kenrya: Yeah, I mean that's kind of the worst part about writing a book is that you don't get to read as much, unless it's something that provides reference for what you're writing. Rebel Miller: That's so true. That is something that I was like, oh my gosh, now I'm part of the writing of the book. I'm not necessarily reading as many as I used. But, yeah. Kenrya: Are you able to go back? Like besides all the edits and all of that kind of stuff, are you ever able to just go back and read them for pleasure, your own books? Rebel Miller: No. Kenrya: Same. Rebel Miller: I don't. You know what it is? It's like done. I feel like, okay I'm done. Because you'll analyze it, won't you? You know what I mean? Kenrya: Yep. Rebel Miller: And kind of get too picky. So, in preparing for this interview I was like, okay, I'm going to go back to that excerpt that you're referring to. I was like, oh yeah, I remember. That was a good piece. Erica: I did damn good. Rebel Miller: That was perfect. But it's just like an actor would say they don't watch their own movies sometimes. I just feel like, no. We're done with that chapter. I'm moving on. Kenrya: Yeah. I deal with the same thing. I was doing a podcast interview about my latest book and somebody asked me what was the best part of the process. And I was like, I finished. Like it was over. It was fantastic doing it, but, once I was done with that, I was ready to move on to the next thing. And I could appreciate the accomplishment of having finished it. But I think, when you write, you're always eager to get onto the next thing because that's the fun part of it is the dreaming and the creating of the new thing. Rebel Miller: It is. And when you're writing it, that's the thing... someone said, the hardest part of writing is writing because you've got the whole story in your head, and now you're trying to articulate it in a storyline. And it can kind of be like, oh my gosh, I can't wait to write the next one. Erica: Yep. Rebel Miller: And, yeah. You just can't wait. So, I end up having to say, okay. What do I enjoy about it? Having to remind like, what am I enjoying about this scene? And then, it usually kind of helps me get back focused. But, yeah. I get it. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Cool. Erica: So, one of the things we do as we're wrapping up our interviews is ask a would you rather question. So- Rebel Miller: Oh, no. Erica: Prepare yourself. So, as I read your books... so I'm a huge Harry Potter fan. And so, this is far from Harry Potter but the worlds and the detail, I mean I could totally see myself at a theme park for the Realm. I could probably see myself at the Realm, going into the expo, all of that. So, I imagine this book as portrayed on the screen. So, would you rather have your book adapted into a movie by either Tyler Perry, so think Madea, loud characters, overacting, or the two white dudes that South Park, Trey Parker and Matt Stone. So, do you want a Madea style Realm or a South Park style Realm? Rebel Miller: So good, this question. Oh my god. You know what? I'm going to say South Park. Kenrya: Okay. Please explain. Rebel Miller: Weird. Okay. So, I feel like South Park, I don't watch it often, but I know they've got like an off colored humor every now and then. Kenrya: Yeah. Kenrya: Oh, yeah. Rebel Miller: I feel like they would get the nuances of this erotic romance in a way that... Tyler Perry is like over the top like big time. Erica: Yeah. Rebel Miller: I don't this movie... it's already a really dense, rich story. South Park would just add like a tongue in cheek to it that would take it over the edge, I think. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: Okay. Kenrya: I see you. Erica: I dig it. I dig it. Rebel Miller: Oh my gosh. That's crazy. Kenrya: Okay. So, that was awesome and that's a good place for us to end. We want to say thank you so much for joining us. And can you tell us where people can find you and your work? Rebel Miller: Oh, for sure. You can go to my website, RebelMillerbooks.com. Or you can find me on Amazon, on iBooks, Barnes and Noble, wherever we they sell digital books. And you can also order print books through some of those online retailers too. But definitely check me out on my website. We just have all the information there and on my social media. Kenrya: Awesome. And those are on Twitter, you're RebelMillerBoox, but it's B-O-O-X. Rebel Miller: Sounds good. Kenrya: And, on IG, it's RebelMillerBooks with an S at the end. Yes. Rebel Miller: Thanks. Kenrya: Awesome. That wraps up this episode of The Turn On. Thanks everyone for joining us. Erica: Thank you so much for your time today. Rebel Miller: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Loved it. I really had a good time. Erica: All right. Kenrya: Thanks, so did we. Kenrya: This week's episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. Please subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app, follow us on Twitter at TheTurnOnPod, and Instagram at TheTurnOnPodcast, and find links to books, transcripts, guest info, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com. Bye.
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LISTEN TO THE TURN ON
Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES In Episode 4 of The Turn On, we read an excerpt from "Awakening," the first book in Rebel Miller's Realm series, "forbidden" love and the times we've talked ourselves into trouble. Resources:
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information. TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Come here. Get off. Erica: Welcome to this week's episode of the Turn On. We're reading Awakening by Rebel Miller. It was published in 2015. This story has a lot going on. We're going to read an excerpt from a larger book. The larger book is a part of a series. All of it has a lot going on. We'll get into that in a little bit. We don't want to give too much away in order to... Kenrya: Leave you with surprise and wonder. Erica: Leave you with something to wonder about and a reason to read the series. Nonetheless- Kenrya: Yeah, it's a speculative fiction. Erica: It's a speculative fiction piece, and we're about to get started. So sit back, relax, get your wine, your weed, your accoutrements, and enjoy. Kenrya: Awakening by Rebel Miller. Kenrya: "What do you want?" Kenrya: "I want you." I stared at him, mouth agape. He'd obviously lost his mind so I need to spell things out for him. "Gannon," I began cautiously, "senators don't have relationships with subordinates. They have affairs and liaisons, which are kept secret." Anger rose within me as I reminded him of the reality of our worlds. "I won't be used that way and it offends me that you would seriously suggest it." "That's easy for you to say." "Rules are made to be broken, Kira," he growled out. I gave him a pitying look, "Gannon, please. The fact that you think I would use you..." Gannon turned on his heel, but abruptly stopped part way to face me once again. "Is it only my status that's the problem?" "What else would it be?" "What about Tai?" I glanced away. "Tai doesn't want me," I said with a shrug of feigned nonchalance. I love Tai, but he didn't love me so I would have to find a way to deal with that. "I want you and I know you want me." I threw my hands in the air, "We're going around in circles, Gannon. Okay, yes. I want you more than I want to admit. I'm so blasted desperate for you at times I can't even think straight and it confuses me, but we can't have anything more than this, whatever this is." His eyes glittered in the dim light of the room as he approached me slowly, his head cocked. "You're desperate for me?" I couldn't help but roll my eyes. "That's what you took away from what I said?" He came to stand in front of me, his chest brushing against my breasts as his lips curved into a smirk. "Desperate I can work with." He suddenly appeared his usual self, powerful, arrogant, and in control, three characteristics that made me weak when it came to Gannon Consul. My heart lept, even as I started to turn my head away. He placed a head at the nape of my neck, stopping me. Watching me closely, he eased his hand into the back of my hair, kneading the small muscles of my scalp as he went. I tried to muffle a sigh of pleasure and ended up groaning instead. I closed my eyes, pushing the back of my head against the steady pressure of his exploring fingers. "I shouldn't be allowing you to do this," I whispered as I opened my eyes. A few moments later, Gannon moved his hands back to my neck, then around my shoulders, and massaged away the tension of the minsters meeting and the argument with Tai. His steady touch lulled me into a sense of security. I closed my eyes, startled when Gannon's hands curved around my back and he pulled me flush against him. He stared at me with a farrow and hungry expression. I tried to lean back, wanting to resist the way the warmth of his body drew me in, but he held me in a firm embrace. "Tell me you want me." I shook my head, biting down hard on my bottom lip. He narrowed his eyes as his heart pounded heavily just above my breasts. After a long moment considering me, he lowered his mouth. My body readied itself immediately for his kiss, softening and leaning into him. I sighed as I raised my mouth, and with a heavy dose of shame, flushed when he dipped his head to place a light kiss at my cheek instead. Halls, could I be an easier conquest? He chuckled. "Are you still trying to deny what's between us?" He asked when he licked just below my jaw. "Tell me what you want." I sighed. "I want you to kiss me." He nipped my neck with the edge of his teeth. "No, you want more than that. Tell me," he demanded. My body trembled at the steel in his voice. I started to pant, my lungs trying to stay ahead of my leaping pulse. Its pace only increased when he ran his tongue over my lips, giving me a taste of what I wanted but refused stubbornly to admit. All above, I wanted to be a stronger woman, but the man I had loved for years didn't want me. The one I couldn't stop thinking about was more than willing to have me. In that moment, I was tired of fighting him. Gannon understood the terms of our reality as well as I did, maybe even more. I would take what he was offering and enjoy it for what it was. Leaning back, I held his gaze and took a deep breath. "I want you to fuck me." I barely got the words out before he captured my mouth with his. He moved both hands to the sides of my face, holding me in place. Instantly, I was lost to an overwhelming assault of his crisp and sharp taste. Gasping, I grabbed the front of his shirt to steady myself as he forced me to walk backward. At the same time, I ran my hands over the front of his chest to locate each of the buttons of his jacket. I blindly opened them and then groaned when I found a shirt underneath. "Too many clothes," I complained as his teeth grazed my lips. He grunted and stopped our blind trek. We continued kissing, even as he removed the shirt swiftly, his moves as agitated as mine had been. I trailed trembling hands along his jaw and into the lushness of his hair. When he'd free himself from the clothing, he tackled the buttons running down the front of my dress. I had taken special care when getting dressed that morning, wanting to be sure that I looked as professional and capable as possible. My knee-length black dress was sleek and sophisticated, its only embellishment a woven belt that buckled to the side. I thought it looked smart and gave me a proficient air. Gannon couldn't have cared less. I stood panting into the heat of his kisses while he tugged at the buttons, most surviving his onslaught while the rest made rapping sounds as they fell to the wood floors. Soon I took matters into my own hands and managed to remove my belt without it coming to any harm. Gannon leaned back, his eyes shown bright as they ran down the length of my body. Now that my dress had been wrangled open, I allowed it to fall from my shoulders and stood before him in my bra, panties, sheer black leggings, and high heel boots. Nostrils flared, he swallowed hard before placing a hand against the floor to ceiling window behind me and pushing me harshly against it. I jolted upon impact, arching away from the coolness of the glass at my back. He surged forward, capturing my mouth once again. "Did I hurt you?" I shook my head, lowering my eyes to his chest and drinking in the sight of him with sputtering breaths. I'd known Gannon was fit, but I hadn't realized just how much his clothing hid from my imagination. I splayed my fingers, running them along the thick planes of muscle along his arms, shoulder, and chest. His breath hitched as I trailed a path across his nipples and down to a taut waist that looked to be carved out of stone. I circled his navel and ran my tongue along my bottom lip as I imagine licking him there. Gannon's hold on my waist tightened sharply. I glanced up to find him staring at me with a hunger that sent a shiver up my spine. If he was intimidating before, watching the transformation that came over him when lust came to life between us was nothing short of heart-stopping. Face tense, he brought up his wrist to my eye level. "My health data is current. I can show you." I smiled when he showed me the information on his comm. "Thank you," I said, suddenly shy. "I'm on birth control." I moved to show him my own record of health, but he stopped me by sliding a hand around my neck and running a thumb along my jaw. "I trust you," he said. The flickering lights coming through the window reflected in his eyes, changing them from silver blue to sea blue and everything in between. The hand resting behind me lowered to unclasp my bra. I shifted to let it join my dress on the floor. Gannon parted his lips as he placed a hand under one of my breast, feeling its heavy weight and molding it as he thumbed the puckered nipple. I sighed at the intensity of the sensation that swept through me. My skin was on fire, kindling, burning for release. No doubt Gannon could feel the scorching heat assailing my body. He closed his eyes briefly, and the look he gave me when he re-opened them was almost hostile. He kissed me then, taking my lips so harshly that they were sure to be bruised the next day. The thought of being marked by his passion sent unexpected thrill through me. Gannon forced his way past my lips and licked forcefully to gain entry. Still stroking my breast, he raised his other hand to my hair, his fingers curling into it tightly. I cringed at the bite of pain, but my heart sped when he soothed my scalp with a knowing touch soon after. I lapped after his tongue on my own, trying to taste every part of him. Suddenly he shifted and placed his hands behind my thighs, lifting me off the ground. As he licked deeper into my mouth, our tongues danced around each other. Meanwhile, I clawed at his back, trying to get closer, even though we were already skin to skin. Gannon turned and carried me the short distance to his dimly-lit bedroom. I reveled in the pressure of his weight on me as he lowered us to the bed. Now cradling him between my hips, I became desperate to feel him inside me and writhed against his heavy arousal, but Gannon's hand was suddenly at my hip, holding me still. "Don't move," he said tightly, giving me a desperate look that flooded my brain with a new wave of heat. Responding to the desire evident in his gaze, I ran my hands over his chest and down his waist. A thrill of anticipation blazed through me as I reached for the thickness of his cock. I frowned when Gannon grabbed my hands and pressed them beside my head. "Don't move these either." He threw me a curious look before he leaned over me, pressing me deep into the bed. Gannon kissed and licked every inch of skin down by neck and across my chest. He lapped at my breasts, making me gasp when he nipped at their puckered buds. I lifted my head, wanting to watch him as he owned my body, but I couldn't see him through his disheveled hair. Without thinking, I smoothed it back. I had only a moment to relish the cool locks between my fingers before Gannon landed a swift slap on my thigh. The stinging pain that bloomed made me cry out. He considered me carefully, "You moved," he said by way of explanation. I stared at him, not sure what to make of the slap, his nonchalance, or the way my body ignited in response to both. Holding his gaze, I slowly lifted my hand, lifting it beside my head once again. I realized that he wanted me available to him at his mercy and waiting for his direction. Somewhere inside me, I thought I should have felt affronted, but who was I fooling? I wasn't a virgin. I have friends who desired a bit of pain and aggression with their sex. I just had never believed myself to be like them. It seemed Gannon had awakened a need inside me that had lain dormant, seeking the right circumstance or person to give it reason to rise. Gannon grinned wickedly as he pushed up and off of me to stand beside the bed, dragging my legs and panties with him as he went. When he reached my boots, he unzipped them and tugged everything off. I only had to lift my hips to help him. He seemed more than capable in this area. My eyes narrowed as he started to unbuckle his pants. A man of Gannon's stature and looks probably has more than one of these liaisons going on at any one time. The thought had popped into my mind many times before, and I found comfort in it as I deflected his advances, but now as I lay before him naked in his private apartment, waiting for him to fuck me as I requested, no, as I had begged him to, it stung. "Grow up, Metallurgist." I knew what this was. I wouldn't let my heart get involved, and surely Gannon wouldn't. I didn't have time to follow the unsettling turn of my thoughts further after Gannon finally stood completely naked before me. My mouth went dry. I clenched my hands, fighting off the urge to reach for him. The rest of him was even more imposingly beautiful than I'd anticipated. His cock was long, thick, and so hard it curved up to tap against his taut belly. Roughly, he ran a hand along the length of it, stroking it from root to tip, where a pearly gleam glistened and beckoned. I pressed my lips together, anxious to get started, to feel deep inside me the power that radiated off him. I glanced up to find his eyes roving over my breasts and waist to land between my thighs where I enjoyed the heat of his gaze. He climbed back onto the bed, running a hand up my inner thigh as he approached. "Dai, t'au falahra," he muttered, almost reverently. I only needed to know the meaning of falahra to know that he was admiring me, calling me beautiful. I flushed at the sound of the foreign language on his tongue. It was one of the sexiest things I'd ever heard. Desperate, I opened my thighs wider, seeking to entice him, since I couldn't touch him and bend him to my will. My body rejoiced the moment he took my mouth, igniting the very core of me. The ache between my legs deepened agonizingly, making me so wet I was certain he could smell my arousal. When he dragged his blunt fingers through the slick folds of my sex, I couldn't stand it anymore. I thrust both my hands into his hair, pulling him down to me. For a few, exhilarating seconds, I sucked greedily at his lips, his tongue, and the skin around his mouth, trying to taste as much as I could. Though he had promised it, I still cried out in surprise when he slapped me again, this time much harder and on the other thigh. I squeezed my eyes shut and panted through the pain and groaned as it faded into a dull heat. Gannon ran a palm over the tingling spot on my thigh. "You okay?" I opened my eyes to find him watching me. From his careful expression, I knew he was wondering whether I was still with him, whether I could handle it. I licked my lips. "You seem so much stronger than that." Gannon's nostrils flared as deep satisfaction filled his face. He kissed me with a new sense of urgency and repositioned himself and ran his arms up mine and grabbed my wrist. Finally, I felt his cock nudge at my sex. With a quick shift in position, he thrust into me so hard I bounced up the bed. I cried out, clenching my fists as I tightened around every inch he buried inside me. "Fuck," he growled out as I became more frantic in response to his thrust. He ran a hand along the side of my neck, his fingers stroking firmly against my pulse. My heart stuttered and I gasped. A second later, I calmed down enough for him to regain control of our pace. "Gannon," I begged. "I know, lahra," he said. I flushed when he used the endearing abbreviation of falahra. He thrust again, my body clenched around his cock so tightly I felt tears well into my eyes. Gannon's deep groan vibrated through the bed. All of a sudden, an unwanted thought entered my mind. What if I couldn't reach orgasm? I would be mortified and inconsolable. I'd been close before during sex, never as close as this, but it was a possibility all the same. I squeezed my eyes shut, trying to drive away the idea. "Look at me," Gannon said, his chest laboring. I dragged my lids open. "I want your eyes on me when you cum." He stared into my eyes as he forced himself deeper still on his next thrust. I nodded reflexively, wondering how to manage that feat. If he got me to orgasm, I would probably lose all control of my body's coordination. I was nearly incoherent with arousal as it was. As soon as the thought entered my mind, I felt a flutter deep within me. I grasped at it desperately, knowing that I was almost there. Gannon must have sensed how near I was to the edge, his pace increased and strengthened. He was a piston, fucking in and out of my body so hard I thought I would combust for the sheer ferocity of his thrust. Suddenly, I felt him stiffen and lengthen almost painfully inside me. "Kira," he whispered hoarsely. His movements became less coordinated above me, so I took advantage of his lack of control to slip my hand into his hair. I grabbed a fist full of it pulling his mouth back to mine. He groaned just as I felt my body tighten and splinter into the most achingly deep orgasm I had ever had. I cried out his name as he pounded into me again and again. His body shook as he forced himself ever deeper inside me, the power of his orgasm visible in every vein standing in relief along his neck and shoulders. He collapsed on top of me. I threw my arms around him, holding him close as the wake of our orgasms rippled through our bodies. Eventually, after an exquisitely long time, our breathing and pulses slowed. Gannon eased up and rested a cheek on one of his fists as he stared down at me. Using his other hand, he traced undefined shapes onto my shoulder. I smiled at him. Gods, he was so beautiful, a stunning sculpture come to life. His meandering gaze met my own, pinning me into the bed. The way he looked at me both confused and electrified me. This is just a temporary diversion. I repeated the phrase over and over in my head, holding onto it. I fidgeted a bit under his weight, and he shifted his hips, dragging his cock out of me as he moved to rest at my side. He was still hard, which was only mildly surprising me. He was the most virile man I had ever had sex with. "You certainly know how to get your way, don't you?" I murmured, running a finger along the side of his face and up across his hairline. He smiled them planted a loud kiss on my mouth. "Female citizens everywhere must have stories to tell, I added." His smile slipped a bit. "I guess when you can give orgasms like that, I shouldn't be surprised," I said, watching his hair fall through my fingers. "Thank you." I looked into his eyes to find his gaze had shuddered. I stayed my hand. "What?" "Are you thanking me for fucking you?" "That's not what I..." "Then what did you mean?" I hesitated. Telling him he'd finally given me the type of orgasm I'd been searching for didn't seem to be a remark he would approve of, and truthfully, it wasn't the reason I thanked him. I was trying to put distance between us to remind him and myself both that this was only temporary, for fun. He pushed himself off me to sit at the edge of the bed. For a full minute, he sat in silence, looking away from me with his hands clenched. He seemed to be caught in a deep struggle with himself. I laid behind him, feeling the need to do something, but afraid to say anything. The tension in the room elevated with our every breath. Finally, he turned to me on a heavy breath as though he had come to some difficult decision. "I guess that will have to be enough," he said before pressing his body on top of me and easing into me again. Erica: Welcome back. That was Awakening by Rebel Miller this was a hot and steamy one. So the first thing that stood out to me was this... Well, you know what? Before we get into this scene, Kenrya, will you set the scene and just kind of give us a little bit of background on the story itself? Kenrya: Sure. So as you mentioned at the top of the show, this book is part of a series, and it's the Realm series, and it's speculative fiction, so it's like fiction of a future world. The people in this world look all kinds of ways. So Kira is a Black woman. She's on the cover. It's clear when they describe her, she's Black. Her boss is blue and has blond hair. People look all kinds of ways, so race isn't necessarily a thing. They just describe how they look. Kenrya: In the Realm, there's lots of different worlds, and that's why there's lots of different types of people, because they all come from different worlds and they mix. Kira is part of a caste that is thought of as being lower on the hierarchy within this world. Erica: So within the Realm, there are castes. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Erica: Okay. Kenrya: So Kira is in a lower caste, and Gannon, whose last name is Consul, because that's the level that he sits at. It's like his family job. It's like back when people used to be- Erica: So it's like a ruling class or something? Kenrya: Yes. Erica: Okay. Kenrya: Kira's last name is Metallurgist, which you hear her refer to herself as at one point when she's telling herself to calm down. So that's her family work or whatever. It's like back in the day when if you were a blacksmith, that was your- Erica: The Indian's caste system. Kenrya: No, like in America where back in the day if you were a Blacksmith, that was your last name- Erica: Smith. Kenrya: ... because that's what the fuck you did. Exactly. So she has this one person, Tai, who is a family friend who she is in love with. We hear her talking about that. He does actually love her, but he is reluctant to develop anything with her because of the family ties. Then you have Gannon, who she met at work, who clearly wants to have some type of relationship with her. You got to read the book to find out what kind of relationship. So she is struggling even in this scene, even as she is in the act of having sex with the way that she feels about both of these men. Erica: Okay. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: So what stood out to me first was that this was a forbidden love or a forbidden tryst. Kenrya: Yeah, in her mind, because they are not of the same caste. Erica: Yeah. Yeah, and throughout the entire situation, even if she's enjoying it, she's talking herself out of it. She just can't get out of her head to just enjoy what the hell's going on. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Erica: Have you ever had a situation like that? Kenrya: I think those are two different questions. All right. One of them is have I ever been in a situation that felt forbidden? No. I don't think I have. I have been in situations where I had to ask somebody permission about whether or not I could move forward. I'm a grownup, so I did. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Have I been in situations that I thought was bad for me? Is that the other part? Erica: Well, not even that was bad for you, but just your... Well yeah, that you had to talk yourself out of, that you wanted to talk yourself out of, or you had to talk yourself through, not even out of, but just through the situation. Kenrya: Sure, but it was in my 20s, so the talking didn't stick and I ended up going forward with some fuck shit. Erica: Well, I was going... Before I even answered a question, I was going to put all your business out and say even like this relationship now that you're in, like when you're coming out of a bad or a toxic or dysfunctional relationship and you go onto something new, don't you find yourself even now with your current partner... I roll my eyes because she calls him her partner. That's some total Realm shit, like, "This is my partner. We sync bands." Erica: But anyway. Kenrya: No, it is some I don't really fuck with the patriarchy or gender roles or norms, and I don't like the idea of... And I'm grown, so saying I have a boyfriend is dumb. Erica: Don't yuck my yum, bitch. Kenrya: To me, sorry. Erica: No, your little man friend. Kenrya: As somebody's auntie would say. Erica: Yeah, your little man friend. But like I think that good, bad, or indifferent, you talk yourself through, "Okay, calm down, self." Kenrya: Right, "This is not a red flag actually. This is,"- Erica: Or this is a red flag. Kenrya: Or it is a red flag and- Erica: Or this is something, put a note in it. We need to talk about this later to figure out what color flag this is. Kenrya: Yes. A lot of it I think is me trying to make sure that I'm not falling into old habits and making sure that I am turning a clear eye to my current situation and not letting it be colored by past things, right? It's like when they're going to fuck up, let them fuck up on his own merits, not on somebody else's, right? Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Kenrya: So what works for me is not just talking to myself, which I do talk myself through it, but I also talk to you about it. I talk to my therapist about it, and probably just as importantly is I talk to him about it. So if there's something that makes me feel like, "Huh, okay." Erica: Icky. Kenrya: Then I have a conversation with him about it and I ask questions. I don't assume, and I don't keep the conversation internal where shit can lead you to chasing your tail. You know? I ask questions and I try to get it out. So yes, I guess so. What about you? Erica: I think that... Yeah. I talk to myself all the time, and I find myself quite interesting. Kenrya: Bitch. Erica: In the past, I found myself talking myself into or out of a situation, just like, "This ain't right. Don't do it. Don't do it," but post-divorce, particularly early on when I was first just getting my feet wet, well, just getting my pussy wet, well, it stayed wet, but y'all know what I'm talking about. Kenrya: Whomp, whomp. Erica: You find yourself in a first... I remember the first situation that I was kind of dealing with. It was a lot of, "Okay, what are you doing? Do you like this? Where are we going with this? How about we not trip about where we're going? How about we just enjoy the fact that he likes to do..." Kenrya: Yes. Erica: So yeah, I found myself talking to myself. But in an act while we're doing the do, yeah, I talk to myself all the time. Kenrya: Do you? Erica: Well, no, let me not say that. I hit a point where I talk to myself, and then there's a point where I just shut that off, because it's just like, "Okay, girl, let's..." I think so much of sex and sexual experience is just about being in the moment. Kenrya: Yeah, being present. Erica: And enjoying it and being present and just, "How does this hand feel on this titty right now?" As opposed to being like, "The hand is coming to the titty. The hand is coming to the titty. It's coming!." Kenrya: "Ah, it's here!" Yeah. Erica: So yeah. Up and to a certain point, I'm talking to myself like, "Okay, girl," because we were talking about in the other episode about how you get to a point where you're having foreplay, doing whatever, it's fun. It's like, "Okay." Kenrya: "Let's go. Let's go." Erica: "Let's do it. Stick it in." So I think once I get to the, "Okay, this is fun. Let's,"- Kenrya: You can shut it off, yeah. Erica: Yeah, I shut it off and I'm like, "Bow chicka wow wow." Kenrya: Are you now, just like that? Erica: Well, it's more of a... Less of a slow and sultry, more of an uptempo kind of situation. Kenrya: Yeah, little a ditty. So in that vein, I don't have conversations with myself about, "What is this? Where are we going?" Not the greater relationship kind of things. By the time I'm having sex, I'm not thinking about that. Kenrya: But what trips me up was something that was happening with her. So earlier in the book at some point, she's having sex and she can't cum. So when she was thinking about it with him, that was really a call back to it, because she really has trouble getting there. So she was starting to worry about it in her head, which we know can keep you from actually coming. That is something that I have done to myself before where- Erica: So fixated on, "Am I going to cum?" That you don't? Kenrya: Yeah, because I have to focus in on it, right? For it to happen, but it has to really be focused in on, "Okay, this feels like this. Ooh, that feels like that." It can't be, "Ah, fuck, I've been up here doing this little move for 10 minutes. This is usually what makes me cum. This is my guaranteed, and I haven't cum yet. Fuck. Is it going to be another two minutes? Is he going to stay hard in this position? Because this is definitely more for me than it is for him. Do I need to do a little bit of fluffing?" You know what I mean? Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Kenrya: Then all of that is going through my head, and later, he... It's like my current partner can see it. He'll be like, "Stop. Focus. Focus. Focus." Erica: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. oh my gosh. Kenrya: Because I will literally be psyching myself out. Erica: Analyzing that whole situation. Kenrya: Yes, because I'm worried I'm not going to... What's crazy is I'm not actually that concerned with coming. I very much am the... Yeah, I know. She's looking at me crazy. Erica: Oh my gosh. Kenrya: Well no, because I know... Here's the thing. I know I'm always going to cum at some point in some way, right? That's going to happen. But I am okay, if it doesn't happen in the morning session, it'll happen in the evening session. I got a pretty good batting average. But every now and then if it just feels really elusive, I'll get kind of stuck on the treadmill of it all. Yeah. Erica: Oh yeah. Kenrya: Yeah, but in general, I am very much of the journey is important to me kind of girl. Erica: Oh totally. Kenrya: Yeah, so if I'm having a fucking fantastic journey but I don't fall off the cliff, I'm okay with that, because I'm going to fall off the cliff next time. Erica: No. No, if I'm having a journey- Kenrya: No? You need to go off the cliff every time. Erica: ... and I don't fall off the cliff, once you fall off the cliff, I'm going to push myself off the cliff. I've had multiple times where I've been like, "Okay. I got to finish myself off." Kenrya: Oh yeah. Erica: And I did. Kenrya: I've done that before. Erica: Oh, I do. Kenrya: But it's been a while. Erica: Yeah. Now I'm like, "Look, we..." Well yeah. I try to... Because sex is for us, not just for you or not just for me. Kenrya: That's right. Erica: So we both got to finish. Sometimes it might have been sex... A lot of times, you don't... I do cum vaginally most of the time, because I know what to do and how to move you in order to make me cum vaginally, but a lot of times I've cum a couple times off of head before we even get to the in and out part of the situation. So I'm okay with that, if you've made me cum off of head. Then you can get yours. But I refuse to be in a situation where you get yours and I didn't get mine. Kenrya: See, if I were in a... I'm not saying this is the situation you're in. But if I were in an, "I took this nigga home and we," like a one-off situation, then yes. You're not getting up. Erica: You were here for a reason. Kenrya: Exactly. Erica: Oh, you thought I brought you here for sandwiches? No. No. Uh-uh. Kenrya: No. No. Erica: You came home for tacos. Kenrya: Exactly. But if I'm in a situation where I'm getting it this afternoon, I'm going to get it tonight, I'm going to get it in the morning, I have been known to even forego the penetrative just because, you know what? As I've talked before about I like the control of making a man cum. So we will do the foreplay, and then I will refuse to stop the foreplay and finish the situation. They get to cum. They are also very upset a little bit, because I didn't, and they're a caring partner, but he's extra determined later on. Erica: Make it happen. Kenrya: I'm playing the long game. Erica: You're playing a long game. Okay, okay, okay. I like it. Kenrya: Yeah, and I like... Because then there's this added build up and anticipation for me for the rest of the day, because I know what's going to happen later on in the day. Erica: You walk around like, "dink dink dink dink dink dink" Kenrya: Yes. Erica: "He going to put it on me. dink dink dink." Kenrya: Because he's just a little bit mad because I ignored him and kept going. Yeah. It works really well for me. But then there's also the fact that when I do cum, it's usually several times. So it's not... I ain't got no shortage of orgasms, okay? I am blessed. Erica: Must be nice. Must be... No, I too. So- Kenrya: Wait, but that to say, that's me now, and that's me probably for the last, I don't know, the last few years, but me when I was super young, early on in my sexual career, and didn't necessarily always know, like you were saying that you know what angle to put this part in what position, what angle, what's going to help you to get there, I think Kira in this story is very young. So she hasn't gotten... She don't know how her pussy work. She hasn't gotten to the point where she knows what works well for her and how to make that happen. So that is why she is in this situation where she's not cumming. It's because she doesn't really know how to yet. Erica: Which is why I'd like to take a commercial break and discuss the importance of sex toys. Kenrya: We were just talking to one of our friends about this. Erica: I think it's so important for women to... Kenrya: You got to spend time with yourself. Erica: Yeah, you got to spend time with yourself. I don't say you have to have toys, but toys are really helpful, because you learn more about yourself and how to do and what to do in order to bring yourself to an orgasm. I think also, I probably, especially as a young woman, probably would have been less likely to jump into fucking some rando- Kenrya: If you knew that you could get it on your own. Erica: ... if I knew I could do it myself and how to make it happen. When I orgasmed with guys when I was a little young whipper-snapper, a young tenderoni, well, I wasn't a tenderoni, because I wasn't making myself come. You reach tenderoni status when you can cum at will. Kenrya: Oh really? Erica: Yeah. That's in the handbook. Kenrya: Got you. Erica: But when I was younger, I just wasn't sure. It would happen and be like, "Oh shit, hey." Kenrya: Right, you just happened to hit the- Erica: "Glad you came," you know? Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Erica: "Glad you showed up." But it wasn't like I knew how to make it happen. Then... Kenrya: Now you get to the point, I know for me, I don't even really finish a song. Erica: Right? I know how the pre-check- Kenrya: The button to hit. Erica: ... in the pre-check lane to Orgasmville. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: I know how to get there immediately. I usually don't hack it unless I'm sleepy and just trying to get to bed, but I think it's so important for us to normalize sex toys and get little vibrator- Kenrya: And self-pleasure. Erica: ... or a rabbit or something so that you know, "Maybe I know I need to focus on my clit. Maybe I need to go deeper for the G-spot. This is where the G-spot is. This is the position that the dick has to hit in order to hit my G-spot. All of that. I think it's so important. Kenrya: Absolutely. You know when you're... What was it? It was fourth grade in my school where they split us up, the boys, the assigned gender, and the folks who are assigned girls, and we're in separate rooms. Erica: And all we learned about was fucking tampons and pads. Kenrya: Yes. Yes. Erica: Teach them about a clit. Kenrya: Right. Then so fifth grade, we had sex ed and we were all together. We had a question box where you could anonymously ask questions or whatever, but we didn't know what to ask. I remember at one point, or maybe it was in one of those little books that they gave you that were really just shilling for feminine hygiene products, like to try to steer you toward a brand. But I remember they would always tell you, "Take a mirror and look so that you can know where everything is and where it's coming out of." Erica: Ain't know point in knowing where it is if you don't know what it do. Kenrya: If you don't know how to... Exactly. So my point is at that point, we should also be talking about pleasure, not just thinking about our vaginas as a source of, "Oh, you're going to have cramps and there's going to be blood." Erica: Because you would have thought a clit just did not exist. Kenrya: No, that wasn't part of that, no. Erica: Do they even show clits in that? Kenrya: No. They show you the urethra. They show you the vaginal opening, and they show you the anus. That's it, at least back when we learned that shit. Erica: Yeah, and I'm like- Kenrya: They just show you the openings, where things go in and come out. Erica: ... "You missed the party." Kenrya: Yeah, and the only focus on the fact that things come out of those spaces, right? Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: They talk about how you have your period. They talk about how babies come out, but they don't say shit about what it means to put things in them in a sex-positive way at all. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: I feel like we have to normalize it from really young. Erica: You'd be amazed the amount of women, grown-ass adult... Because my new thing is I buy young girls vibrators. Kenrya: Nice. Erica: I have a friend whose daughter, shout out to you, I know you're listening. Kenrya: I know who you're talking about. Hey, girl. Erica: Who is about to leave for college. I'm like, "She's getting a vibrator from me," because I think it's important for young women to know themselves and know what's going on and feel things out. She was like, "Well, what about me?" Kenrya: Her mama? Erica: Yeah. I'm like, "You're a grown-ass woman with two kids. Not to shame you or woo-woo you,"- Kenrya: I mean, I bought you a vibrator. Erica: But it wasn't my first. Kenrya: No. It was just because I thought you would like it. And did you break yours? Is that what happened? Erica: I was literally going through divorce... What does our therapist call it? I was on a sex sabbatical, like no dating, no flirting, no- Kenrya: I too was on that sabbatical. Erica: ... fucking, nothing. I couldn't even flirt with anybody. It was bad. So all I had was my trusty, dusty vibrator. When I tell you that vibrator was dusty, because I went to go grab it, and that bitch was like, "Uh-uh, not today." So Kenrya was kind enough to gift me with a great vibrator. Kenrya: I was. Erica: But all that to say please get to know yourself. Get you a good vibrator. You can do a rabbit if you're just trying to do something small, get you a little bullet vibrator, put it to your clit, and I promise you you will see stars in the good way. Kenrya: But even I think backing up on that as a mom of a girl, and as a mom of a boy too, I think it's really important that we create positive connections with our kids and their genitals. When my kid was born, and folks can take this how they want, but when I would change her diaper, I always had a smile on my face, even if she has shat up her back. Every- Erica: FYI, godmama did not, but continue. Kenrya: Even if I had to take off all her clothes because there was poop in her hair, and on my bed, these are all things that happen in real life, I always, even if it smelled awful, which is what happened when she finally started eating real food, I always had a smile on my face. I never wanted her, even from the very young age of one day old, to ever have a negative association with her personal parts. So it, to me, it started there. Then I think people are always surprised at how early kids start to touch themselves, but it starts very early. Erica: Oh my gosh, and you're never prepared as a parent, but you got to... I remember the first time I found out about mine, and I freaked the fuck out internally. Kenrya: Did you? Okay. Erica: Internally. Inside, I was like running and said, "Ooh!" Kenrya: Why do you think you freaked out? Erica: Just because this is my baby, and it's like I want him to still be... You associate touching yourself and getting pleasure from your parts with adulthood. So it was one of those- Kenrya: See, that's part of the shift that has to happen where we don't think of that as just being- Erica: No, I completely agree, but instinctively as a mom, I was just like, "Oh my god. He's playing with himself. Next thing you know, I'm going to catch a little bitch in his room." Kenrya: Oh god. Yeah, that's just what it was. Erica: That's literally what it was. But externally, I was just like, "Hey, kid, take that to your room." Kenrya: Right. Erica: Because I don't want him to have these weird creepo, these weird associations with I can't pull out my... I don't need him pulling out his dick anywhere, but just you meet people, and they have some of the strangest things, hangups about their body. I don't want him- Kenrya: Yeah, or a total disconnect from their body. Erica: Yeah. You don't necessarily need to be the dude like butt naked, full frontal having a conversation about grilling this weekend with a guy in a locker room. Kenrya: Right, right, his neighbors, right. Erica: But at the same time, I don't want you being the kid that has to run and hide in the corner when it's time to change shirts in gym. Kenrya: Change for gym. Erica: Yeah. Internally, I was having a full meltdown just because I was like, "Ah!" But externally I was like, "Hey, bud, quick flicking it," because it was one of them... You know how they just- Kenrya: Just touching it. That's- Erica: Yeah, exactly. Kenrya: Yeah. Then there's no outcome they're expecting. They're literally just touching it because its theirs and they realize it was there. "Oh, that feels like something." Erica: Let's be honest, if I had a dick, I would totally... Not even a dick. Balls. I'd probably be late to work playing with them motherfuckers. Kenrya: Oh my gosh. Erica: They're just like... I don't know. But then I saw someone on Twitter. This goes completely uncredited. I cannot remember who said it, but someone was like, "If I want to play with balls, I'll just play with my elbows." Kenrya: Wait. We're both touching our... Kenrya: Oh shit. Erica: So yeah. Kenrya: Yeah. If I stretch it all the way out, it's- Erica: Yeah, it gets a little doughy, yeah. Kenrya: That's hilarious. So when I first realized that that was happening, I don't remember an internal... I was just like, "Oh okay, she's touching herself." So we had a conversation. I was like, "Oh, okay." I was like, "Well, that's yours." I was like, "You can touch it as much as you want." I was like, "But," because I think she was in the living room. I was like, "But, so you know how we talked about there are some parts of our body that are just for you and that are private and that nobody else should ever touch unless you give them permission?" I was like, "That really is just me and your doctor." I was like, "That's one of those parts. If you want to touch it, you got this amazing room." I was like, "You can go to your room. You can spend as much time in there as you want to with that." I was like, "It's fun. It's yours. Enjoy." So she went to her room. She was in there for a couple minutes. Then I was like, "Go wash your hands." Erica: Right. Put some sanitizer on that. Kenrya: Then she went on back about her business. I have definitely had to remind her over the years to go to her room. She's good about it now, but it works, and if she ever has any discomfort, anything around her vagina, because I was really positive in the way that I reacted to it, she ain't got no problem being like, "Mama, it hurt," or, "Mama," whatever. Then I'm like, "Okay, well maybe you need to give it a little... Have you been touching it?" Erica: Give it a rest. Kenrya: Give it a rest. I'm like, "Give it the night, and then in the morning, see how things are feeling." She's like, "Okay." Then she'd go to sleep. Erica: Good. Kenrya: I think it's because I've always been super intentional about making her feel comfortable with her body, all of its parts. So we need to normalize that, I think. Erica: Yes, we do. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Something else that we need to normalize, well, I don't know how... Hopefully it's normalized, but this is some fancy, space age pimping going on in this story, particularly in this excerpt, but I like how they stopped to check status. Kenrya: Yes, well- Erica: No granted, we're not walking around with it on our iPhones, our iWatches. Kenrya: Oh, I actually do have it on my phone. Erica: Well, in your watch, you don't have to scan your watch. Kenrya: Girl, I ain't got no fancy- Erica: Exactly. You couldn't do that anyway, but all that to say, it's not like you can just run a stat, like run that information, but I thought it was really cool how this author wrote in something about that, because it's missing from a lot of- Kenrya: Most of. Erica: ... most of the stories. Kenrya: Folks don't pull out condoms, folks don't talk about their status. Erica: Even ask or something like that. So I think it was really great that she added that that was a part of this story. Kenrya: Yeah. I just don't like that he was like, "I trust you." Erica: But it happens. Kenrya: It absolutely is realistic. Erica: Yeah, let's not act like it don't happen, yeah. Kenrya: Yeah, it's realistic as hell. It's just like based on what, my G? You can't- Erica: So how do you ask? How do you do it? Kenrya: Very directly, at this point. There was this time where I was getting flewed out to go see somebody who I'd been friends with for years. We had decided that we were going to have sex. I wanted the full compliment of services. So I had my tests. I hadn't had sex since the last time I got testing, and I do actually keep it on my phone, saved as a favorite. I texted it to him and was like, "I want to be able to do all the things. Here are my test results. I need you to get tested and send them to me, and then we can have fun." He said, "Bet, let me call and make an appointment." Erica: Cool. Kenrya: Then once he was done, he sent it to me. My current relationship is basically how it usually goes. If I'm with somebody, I'd just be like, "Look," once I get to the point where I do want to be able to do all the things and I trust them and blah blah blah, I literally just say, "Look, I want us to be able to do all the things, but I can't do that unless I know that you're safe. That means that you have to get tested." So they do it. I need to see date stamps. I need all the things, and I am just as forthcoming with my own information. No one's ever asked me to take another test. They've always trusted that I was giving them- Erica: Once we've done it, we're- Kenrya: Well no, that I was giving them the most recent information. Oh yeah, no. No, I've never had them... But see, I get tested annually for everything anyway. I remember when I was living in New York, I was in my 20s, and I was going to the doctor. It was just my regular doctor's office. I would have them do blood tests for everything, including HIV. I remember one of the doctors was like, "Well, there are other ways to prevent HIV. You don't need to get tested every year." I was like, "Are you fucking stupid?" Erica: Really you're supposed to get tested every six months. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: If you're out there doing it like that. Kenrya: Out there. I was in a committed relationship- Erica: Not out there, but when you're doing it. Kenrya: ... but to me, you can have all the... I know firsthand that you can have all the faith and trust in somebody who has committed to you and then find out that that aint' what's shaking. Then you don't know what you got, because you're not getting yourself tested all the time. That has been, since I started having sex, I have gotten tested at least annually for everything, because I just... Yeah. We can be in a committed whatever, and I can trust you, but who knows what the fuck you're doing with your dick when I'm not around? I'm not trying to fuck around and have something pop up that I can't get rid of or have long-term consequences like PID and infertility or any of these things because I decided that I want to completely take your word on the fact that nothing was going on. Erica: All right. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Cool. Kenrya: What about you? How do you ask? Erica: Yeah, I don't think I ask. I just like you, I just do. No, I don't. I guess I could access my test results through my phone, but I certainly don't keep it saved as a favorite. Kenrya: It's just a screenshot of LabCorp. Erica: Yeah, yeah. I guess I could. But yeah. I say, "Hey, I got tested recently," or I do testing every six months. I do annually with my doctor, and then usually- Kenrya: Go to Planned Parenthood or something? Erica: Yeah, usually Planned Parenthood. Well, not even Planned Parenthood. I go back to my doctor, because they're really good about just quick checks, or I hit up the Patient First. Kenrya: Oh, I've never done that there. That's a good idea. Erica: They do everything at Patient First urgent care. Kenrya: That's so much faster than Planned Parenthood. Ooh, you're smart, bitch. Erica: Yeah. So I say, "Hey, these are my recent test results. Let me see yours." Then we go from there. But it used to be difficult. It used to be not a sexy conversation, but now it's an even more... It's still not a sexy conversation, but when you're prepared, I'm like, "Oh, you're really about to get this pussy, because you know what you're doing. You take care of yourself." Kenrya: Yeah, I that's a turn on. We grown. I don't feel like I should have to beat around a bush about whether or not you're healthy and I'm healthy and we can do this. I think part of it too is that I do usually frame it in the context of I want to be able to do all the things. That is exactly why it's important to me. Beyond the fact that of course we know that condoms don't protect from everything and whatnot, and even then, in some cases, there will still be times when we will use condoms, even though we have done the testing thing. It doesn't necessarily preclude from that, but it definitely makes me feel more at ease when it comes to oral sex and things like that. Erica: Swapping juices. Kenrya: Fluids. Exactly. I have to have that before I do it, because I'm not interested in taking nothing home. Erica: Sitting in the doctor's office. Yeah. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Okay. So now down to the nitty-gritty of this, the actual sex. Honey, so I like a big guy. We know that, right? Kenrya: Oh yeah. Erica: It's very clear. I will entertain the smaller brethren. Kenrya: Will you? Erica: I have. I have. Kenrya: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Erica: I have. Kenrya: I see a few in my head. I see a few in my head. Erica: Yeah, but I like a big guy, primarily because I like to be manhandled. I like to be picked up and tossed around. When he picked her up, I was like, "Well, Murder, She Wrote, because you about to murder this pussy." Kenrya: Yes. That was cool, and you know me, when she moved her hands after he told her not to and he slapped her thigh- Erica: I was going to say, I have a note right here, knowing to give directions, so sexy. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Because it's one of those things, you have to feel it out. Not every woman is into pain or that element. So even bigger than the slapping her on the thigh, it was just like they were feeling it out, and he knew... Not even that he knew, but he was able to kind of test the waters and see how she responded. Kenrya: Right, in a way that wasn't over the top or wouldn't freak her out. Erica: And she's still young in this, so it's not like he slapped her on the thigh and threw a collar around her neck, but it was just enough restriction and rules to kind of surprise herself, but keep it going. Like woo. Kenrya: Yeah, when she was surprised that it actually... Yeah, that it worked for her, that she liked it. Erica: That's how I felt. I know you're a nipple gal, but that's how I felt the first time I had my nipples pinched hard. I was like- Kenrya: "Oh, what?" Erica: ... "Wait, whoa." It was like, "Wow, that happens? Ooh, that really does that?" Kenrya: Yeah, for some people. Yeah. Erica: Yeah. So I thought that was really cool, just how he was so good at kind of nudging her towards the direction. Kenrya: Yeah. No, it was good, and she followed, which is not always easy to do, especially if that's not what you're used to doing. Erica: If that's not your thing. Kenrya: Yeah, and it pushed her over. Erica: Yes, it did. So once she got over, they made it to the mountain top, they sitting, looking on the side of the rock at all the land that they've conquered, enjoying themselves. Kenrya: Surveying their spoils. Erica: Surveying what happened. Her ass start talking. Kenrya: This bitch. Erica: And fucked it up. Kenrya: She said, "Thank you." But beyond that, she said, "Yeah, I'm sure there's folks all over the Realm that have experienced that." Erica: Yeah, and I know that was her doing it... I think that was her talking out loud, talking herself down of, "This isn't what I think it is or what I want it to be." Kenrya: Yes, "Calm down, bitch. It's fine. He doing this to everybody. You're not special. Don't treat him like he's special." Erica: Exactly. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: So have you had a situation where you've talked yourself out of seconds? Kenrya: No. I'm greedy. Erica: So you've never been and had a good time and then said something that completely killed the mood? Kenrya: No. Not that I can think of. Erica: Yeah. This bitch told me about how a fucking transformer blew up out her window last night and they kept fucking, so I don't think there's much that kills the mood. Kenrya: Yeah. I mean I did get up, but then I got back down. Erica: So has anyone said anything to you post sex that have talked about a- Kenrya: Oh sorry, I'm seeing that whole scene last night. Ooh, that made me not want to do it again? Erica: That was just like, "You know what? You was about to get some more head. Now your ass got to go home." Kenrya: There was the guy who I talked about in another episode who complained about how wet it was to give me head. Erica: He said that post sex, like you all laying there naked? Kenrya: It was when we were switching positions from him giving me head. Erica: Oh. Kenrya: He was like, "It's just so messy. We got to wipe up and all of this." I'm like- Erica: You don't wipe up. You just keep going. Kenrya: Hello? I was like, "So what, you don't want to do it?" He was like, "Nah, it's too messy." So I was like, "Bet, I'm not sucking your dick no more." I literally just said that. It was as we were transitioning. Erica: Oh my god. Kenrya: So he talked himself out of ever having head again from me, because I never did it again. Erica: Yeah. Note to men. A lot of times you can get so much farther if you just shut up. Kenrya: Shut the fuck up. Erica: Just shut up. If you don't know what to say or if you're not sure if it's going to be corny- Kenrya: Don't say nothing. Erica: ... just don't say nothing, because she going to make up some shit that you're saying in your mind that's probably sexier than anything you could say. Kenrya: She's giving you all kinds of grace. Erica: Yeah, she probably said the most specific shit that you would have never thought of in a million years, but it hits her right in that button, and she's like a waterfall. So if you're unsure, just don't say shit. Kenrya: Just don't say nothing. Erica: Because it's easier to talk yourself out of some pussy than it is to talk yourself into some pussy. Kenrya: Yeah. Has anyone ever done that to you or have you ever? Erica: Oh, I'm queen of some weird shit to say after sex. Kenrya: Ooh, like what? Erica: Like you know me and, "Meep, moop, I am a robot dinosaur." Call back to episode one or whatever. Let me think. Yeah, I'm the nigga that could talk myself out of some dick. Well no, I couldn't. Men are- Kenrya: Men are simple. Erica: Men are simple. Kenrya: "We love you though." Erica: "We love you though." Bringing up old shit. I'm quick to be like, "Whew, you really murdered that pussy. Now who was that bitch you was in the store with?" "You mean my cousin?" No, I'd be like, "Who that dusty-ass ho you was in the store with?" He'd be like, "You mean my mama? You calling my mama a dusty ho?" "Ooh, my bad. Let me just go home." I've definitely probably done something equivalent to that. I can't think of specifics, but I know for a fact that I have killed a mood or two in my day. Erica: With regard to someone saying something that would kill a mood or something being done? I can't... Oh shit, I haven't asked questions that- Kenrya: You ain't got an answer to. Erica: I haven't thought about answers for myself. Kenrya: Well, hmm. Okay. I got one, kind of, while you think. I was having sex with this dude- Erica: I can't think of this... Sorry. Keep going. Kenrya: Bitch, multitask. It seemed to me, which is what I said out loud after, that he was trying to hurt me, but not in a good way. Like in a his shit was fucked up, and it's not like we had a conversation about boundaries or anything like that. But the position that he kept trying to put me in was like... It was the only position he wanted to have sex in. It was like if I scream, that was like getting him really... I said after, I was like, "You know, it really felt like you were trying to hurt me." He just kind of froze, which is how I knew I was fucking right. Then that dude ghosted me. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Yeah, like I think- Erica: He's like, "I can't abuse her." Kenrya: Yeah. Like I caught... You can be into BDSM and you can be a masochist and all of this stuff and have... You should be having conversations with the people that you're with and be honest about what you want and what gets you off, and if you have a consenting partner, that shit can work. But to me, it felt super dishonest. Erica: He likes the unconsented part. Kenrya: Exactly. Erica: He likes the unconsented part. That's what gets him off. Kenrya: That's what gets him off. Exactly. So I feel like it wasn't that I said anything wrong. I think that that was exactly what I should have said and was absolutely what I wanted to say, but I do believe that that's the reason that he disappeared, because I had called him on his shit. Erica: Yeah, because let's be clear. I think if it's possible to say something and completely dead it, a lot of times, I'm not going to say all the time, but a lot of times you're like... If you're able to say something- Kenrya: You got one foot in and one foot out anyway. Erica: Yeah, if you're able to say something, if you're able to say one thing that can kill everything, it's like, "Y'all wasn't really right." Kenrya: That wasn't shit anyway. Erica: Because even if I say something out-of-pocket, if you're- Kenrya: The right person is laughing at your dumb ass. Erica: Yeah, like, "This dumb robot dinosaur-ass chick." Kenrya: Right. Erica: Yeah, but I can't think of any... Again, I've had a long and storied past. I'll let you all know if there was something that was said. I feel like there is, but I can't come to mind of anything where something was said to me that was like- Kenrya: Good. Erica: ... "Hey, bitch." I mean, yeah, because I get all those questions out of the way up front early on. I remember I was on a date with a guy, and I don't know why, but I got the feeling that he had someone. Kenrya: Was just your spidey sense, your intuition was telling you, yeah. Erica: My spidey senses. I was like, "Are you dating someone or do you have a girlfriend?" He was like, "No." I was like, "Well, is there someone that would be upset that,"- Kenrya: "That you were here with me right now?" Erica: ... "that you told me,"- Kenrya: That's the way I ask that question, yeah. Erica: ... "that you told me that you don't have someone?" Kenrya: Ooh. Erica: I said, "All right." Yeah, so thankfully I got that out of the way, because he definitely was going to get some pussy, but I got that out the way and got... Kenrya: I ask that question, and I always say, "Is there somebody who would be upset that you're with me right now?" Because saying girlfriend or whatever the fuck, they lie. They're going to lie anyway, but I feel like that one, ooh, sometimes at least gets to the heart of the matter or they react in such a way, like in your situation, that you can tell. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Exactly. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Where they reveal all. Erica: Yep. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Erica: So in the bigger book, what's the lead? The protagonist? Kenrya: Protagonist? Yes. Erica: The lead actress. The protagonist, Kira, is caught in a love triangle of sorts. She's torn between two. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Uh-uh, (singing) Kenrya: What are you singing? What are you singing? Erica: "I'm In Love With Another Man", Jasmine Sullivan. Kenrya: I don't know that song. Erica: It is... Oh, bitch, I be in my car singing hard. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: (singing) I'm sorry, you all. I'm so sorry, I got to listen to that. Ooh, I love me some Jasmine Sullivan. Anyway, so she's on some "I'm in Love With Another Man" shit. That's some juicy shit that I'd like when I tell you I'm running from that kind of drama, but have you ever been in a caught between two? Kenrya: No. I have been in a, "I am firmly over here, but I am what-iffing the fuck out of this other situation," situation. Erica: Oh? Kenrya: Bitch, you know this. Hunker down. I have definitely, yes, where I was firmly in a committed relationship, but there was a... Erica: Oh yeah, now I got it. I got it. Uh-huh. Kenrya: A past situation where it ended not on bad terms. Erica: It just ended. Kenrya: It ended because of logistics and whatever. So there was always kind of in the back of my head a "what if that had actually worked out?" Kind of a situation. But it definitely wasn't an, "I'm torn between." It was just like, "Okay, if I'm ever free, then I'll try it. If I'm not, then I'm not, because I'm right over here." So no, I've never felt torn between two people, because I'm very much like... I guess it still kind of holds true, although now it's much more intentional, but my cycle was always when I was younger, dating, I would date a whole bunch of people and then very quickly narrow it down to somebody and then keep it moving. It was always way too quickly, as my history will show. Kenrya: Then once I came off of my man sabbatical, I was very intentionally dating at least three people at a time, very openly and honestly, so that I would give each one the correct amount of consideration as I was trying to figure out if I wanted to spend extended time with any of those people. But it always would narrow down or, honestly, more often than not, I would just talking to all of them, because none of them were really a good match for me. But no, I don't think I ever have, have you? Erica: No. I'm the type of person when I decide to rock with you, then- Kenrya: You with them. Erica: ... just everything else cuts off. Kenrya: Same. Erica: Yeah. I used to think that shit was romantic and, "Ooh, you're caught between two people." Now I'm like, "That shit just sounds like a fucking headache." Kenrya: That sounds like... Ugh, yeah. It really does. Erica: I don't understand it. I don't want to have to... It's hard enough for me to care about one person, let alone multiple people, which is what we'll get into when we discuss polyamory, because honey, I'm trying to be considerate. It takes a lot- Kenrya: It does. That's why I think- Erica: ... for me to be considerate of one other person's emotions. Kenrya: Yeah. We're obviously not talking about that now, but that's why I think the people how think, "Oh, it's for people who don't want to commit," I'm like, "No, it's quite the opposite of that, it seems to me." Erica: No, it takes a next level commitment to care about two people. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative), or more. Erica: yeah. I feel like all our polyamorous listeners, you all have super evolved. Kenrya: Right. Hats off, shit. Erica: Yeah, because this wraps up this week's episode of the Turn On. Kenrya: Yay. Erica: Once again, we did it. Kenrya: We did. Erica: We made it past the finish line. Kenrya: It was fun. Erica: We are on the top of the rock. Kenrya: We went over the cliff. Erica: Surveying all the damage that we've done. Kenrya: Damage? Erica: All the goodness. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: We're looking upon a sea of dildos and happy faces. Kenrya: I like it. Erica: So thank you for joining us again. These are your hosts, your lovely hosts Erica- Kenrya: Erica and Kenrya. Erica: We are two hoes making it clap. Kenrya: Making it clap. Erica: This week's episode was produced by us, Erica, Easy E, and Killer Ken, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. Please subscribe to this show on your favorite podcast app. Follow us on Twitter @theturnonpod and Instagram @theturnonpodcast and find links to books, transcripts, guest info, and other fun stuff at theturnonpodcast.com. Holla.
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Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES In Episode 3.5 of The Turn On, we interview Carol Taylor, editor of "Brown Sugar 4: Secret Desires," and take a deep dive into the origin story of the groundbreaking "Brown Sugar" series. Resources:
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information. TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Come here, get off. Kenrya: Today we're blessed to talk to Carol Taylor, the creator of the "Brown Sugar" series, which is where we first ran loose at. A former Random House book editor, Carol is a 25-year publishing veteran who has worked as an editor, coauthor, book doctor, and ghost writer with literary and commercial writers, noted academics, public figures and celebrities. The award-winning author has given us 10 books, including the 2010 novel, The "Ex Chronicles," and the bestselling "Brown Sugar" series. Carol heads up editorial strategy and conceptual development as the editorial director at McKinnon Literary Agency, teaches in the public certificate program at City College, and has taught creative writing at New York University. Carol, thanks for joining this. Carol: Thanks so much for having me. This is a real pleasure and an honor. Kenrya: Yay. We feel the same way. Carol: Thank you. Kenrya: Before we dive in, what are your preferred pronouns? Carol: She, her, Carol, Brown Sugar. Always happy with Brown Sugar, which I do sometimes get. Erica: I love it. We read your bio and it's dope. You do amazing things, but we would love it if you could sum up what you do in one sentence. Carol: I work with words in every incarnation, from editing to writing to ghost writing. I help people put their thoughts and ideas on the page in a way that helps them and others. Erica: Wow. That even sounded beautiful. Kenrya: Right? We're talking in paragraphs out here. Erica: Take us back to a little baby Carol. What did you want to be when you grow up, when you were growing up? Carol: I was born in Jamaica, so for me, the whole idea of writing books was just not something I was thinking about. We were thinking about getting out of Jamaica quite honestly. We left Jamaica and came here to the US, and then I found that I could disappear into books. I'm the youngest of four, but I was the one who was always under the bed reading a book with a flashlight. I found these worlds in books, but you don't know where books come from. I thought they came from the bookstore because that's where I got them. I always wanted to be a part of that process. I didn't know if it was writing them. I journaled, but I didn't equate that with being a writer, although that's a start. I assumed, okay, books come from the bookstore. I'll go and I'll work at a bookstore. I did that and very quickly found out that I am not a retail person. Man, that's when I found out I am not a retail person. It's a whole different world. It occurred to me that, oh, books come from publishing houses and editors get to make those books. That's when I decided, this is way back in the day. God, I'm going to date myself ... when we still had to know how to type. I had to learn how to type 90 words a minute and I decided, okay, I want to get a job in a publishing house. I went to an agency in my little cheap polyester suit, 90 degrees out. I'm burning up and sweating every day with my little briefcase, nothing in it. I learned to type. By the end of that summer, I was sent for a job at Anchor Books. This was before they were a part of Random House when it was still just Random House and not a part of PRH. I went for a job there in the editorial department and, unfortunately, I did not get that job, but I impressed the human resources person so much because I was nice in the elevator that when she got a job at Random House, she asked to see me. That's how I actually got a job as an editorial assistant at Random House, which was my preferred house. That's karma. That's how I became a book editor. No one tells you about the process of making publishing, producing, acquiring books unless you're actually in the book world. It was a real education for me. Right now, I work at the publishing certificate program at City College, and it is a program that introduces students to the book publishing world, and it's taught by industry veterans. This is a program I wish I had 20 years ago, 25 years ago when I started. Kenrya: That's interesting because one thing that I noticed is you didn't say I went to college and studied English or I studied journalism. It was really that you decided you were going to do it and the thing that you felt that you had to learn with typing. At that point, were you ever made to feel as if that was something that was a necessary part of the journey to becoming a books editor or was it never really an issue? Carol: No, it was never explained. I never could conceive of ... We didn't know what that was. Ask a kid in college what a book editor is. They won't know what that is. We have no concept of it. I'm being really serious. Kenrya: No, it's true. Carol: What is it? Where do books come from? What happens in book publishing? We teach whole courses on this to adults who are writers because we really don't know the process. I'm a writer too, and the fact that I can write 10 books, a book a year is only because I was a book editor. I know the process. I know how it works. No. I went to school. I graduated. I was a literature major, creative writing minor, and I had no clue that I was going to work in publishing or be a book editor. I like books. This is interesting. I'm terrible at math. Economics, that's not happening. I wanted to ... I love literature. This was interesting to me. No, I never connected any of those dots, never knew the questions to ask. Of course, I had a guidance counselor. It never occurred to me to ask them, so how can I work with books? I was like, oh, I'm content to read them. I had no idea of what I would do with that knowledge until ... I don't even remember how I figured out that I should be a book editor. I think I was reading something about the book world and it said book publishers and then I just did my research from there. Kenrya: Wow. Now, you are. Carol: Exactly. Kenrya: Where you are is that you really created a genre that didn't, not in a really substantial way, at least to me, exist before. We started this podcast, The Turn On, because we want to explore erotica that centers Black women and femmes and really anybody that doesn't identify as a man and Black bodies and Black sex. I'm wondering what pushed you to curate and create this series. What's the origin story of "Brown Sugar?" Carol: Well, on my home planet Krypton ... I loved the origin story. I loved the way you phrased that. It's an interesting story and it comes from publishing. When I was an editor at Random House, I did a lot of books that had to deal with the Black world. For me, that's my interest. I'm interested in immigrant stories, Black stories, brown stories because I don't center white culture. For me, Black culture is the center. Although I acquired, which means I bought books, not all editors acquire books, some acquire them and edit them. I bought books, acquired books, fiction, nonfiction, self-help, pop culture, for color books, lifestyle books, all under the umbrella of multiculturalism because that's my interest. When I was at Random House, that was a huge house even before it merged with Penguin. There were about, I don't know, five editors of color. I did a lot of the books of color that were published, not only by the imprint that I worked at Random House but the other imprints as well. I was a reader for a lot of those books. You would call them now sensitivity readers, but I was reading books that they wanted to know if the Black market would be interested in them. In one of those meetings, I ended up actually publishing a lot of books by Essence editors. One of those books dealt with Black love. After I left Random House, because the culture had become very corporate and editors were doing far fewer actual editing of manuscripts than going to meetings and marketing, and it really wasn't what I had signed up for. So when I left Random House, I acquired one last book from Essence on love, and I had done a lot of research from one of their editors to acquire it. I got a call from an editor who said, "Do you think that there is a market for a book about Black erotica?" I was like, "Who are you talking to? What do you think? You're a Black lady. What's happening here?" I was like, of course there is an audience for a book about Black love, Black sex, Black relationships, erotica because we are seen by white America as being monolithic, but within the Black world, we have so many diverse stories. Just the three of us are so different, and yet we're all three Black women. Of course, I knew there was a market and of course I had a lot of information from the research. She was like, "Okay, you're an editor. Put together a proposal." I put together a proposal, and I called up an agent, and I said, "So and so wants to see this. Will you send it out?" She sent it out and the book was bought. It's an erotic anthology of Black fiction. Imagine back in '99, this whole concept is high concept, a collection of erotic-like fiction written by people of color for people of color, gay, straight, what have you. This is high concept. To me, I'm like this is Saturday night. This isn't high concept. This is just real talk. I was blessed to actually have them. This was Penguin. Plume did the first Brown Sugar. Put together a gorgeous package with a beautiful woman on the front, so tastefully done. I had amazing writers as you know. We put together a really rich collection of stories that really told the tale of love in diverse communities, in many different voices. I had poets. I had novelists. I had nonfiction writers. It was just so raw and real that I think the first week it was published, it hit the LA Times bestseller list at number two. They were astonished. They had to just keep rolling out and rolling out books. They sent me on a 10-city book tour because of it. Kenrya: Get out of here. Carol: Get out of here. We created a genre with this package. I'm a book editor, so we created a package that I knew would suit the market. For me, that was a small format, trade paperback at a particular price point that looked a particular way, and it worked. You saw so many other different, I mean in addition to the three others that we did, there's Brown Sugar two, three and four. There were so many other erotic Black anthology collections that popped up. Some did well. Some did not. This is really the benchmark, I think, for these types of collections. I was thrilled they weren't competing with me. I was happy, very happy to see them. Kenrya: You said that this is just what you do, but can you dig a little deeper and tell us why you think it's important to tell these stories and what draws you to this type of work? Carol: Here's the thing. For me, erotic Black fiction was a way to encapsulate what it was as a category, but really these are stories about us, stories that were not being told in this way, in this voice, in this style. It's important to me as a Black woman to be able to talk about sex, sexuality, feelings and emotions around that and communicate that in a way that allows me to feel empowered and to tell my story and to let others do it. Black people and people of color were being depicted only as one dimensional, in one way. Women were like this, and men were like that. That is really not the full kaleidoscope or mosaic of our lives. In these different stories, we're showcasing those different worlds in really interesting ways. For me, it's a reclaiming of my sexuality as a woman and being able to talk about it. There's nothing wrong with talking about sex. We're all having sex. We may as well talk about it. There's a way to write about sex in a way that is sexy as opposed to being "pornographic." I think Isabel Allende said erotica uses a feather and pornography uses the whole chicken. That's true. There are different layers to erotic writing. When you are able to convey those different layers in a really nuanced way, you can write something that is incredibly sexy, sexual and erotic without one sex scene. There's not a lot of sex in these books, but that's the funny part. There's not a lot of sex happening on the page. It's really erotic, sexual, sensual couplings between people. Kenrya: Wow. You talked a little bit earlier about how you've acquired and edited books across several genres. Did you ever, and it sounds like no, but did you ever struggle with the decision to include erotica in your portfolio? Carol: That's an interesting question. It really is because I think of all those nuances I just talked about. Here's the thing. Brown Sugar has made me a Times bestselling author. I've had a fantastic career behind it. These are books that I'm really, really, really proud of. My very first book was a collection of the best Black essays, the best 100 Black essays. That's my first book, Sacred Fire. I was writing nonfiction essays. I don't have any misconceptions or misperceptions about who I am or what I write or any of that. I was hoping to demystify the idea of a Black woman who is, I hope, sexy and certainly sexual writing about sex and intimacy. There's as much intimacy in these collections as there is sex, probably more, not a whole lot of sex actually in these. I've published people like, gosh, I've published nearly every Black writer in these four collections plus Wanderlust literally. Edwidge Dandicat, Tananarive Due, literally almost everyone who has come up. Kenrya: Folks that we don't necessarily associate with erotica. Carol: With erotica. Because erotica is not what people think it is, erotica is not necessarily sex. Erotica is the eroticism around the act itself. The act doesn't even have to be there. Erotica is almost the buildup to it. Erotica has gotten a bad rap in many ways. It's really the art of writing about intimacy and emotion and maybe there's sex involved. It's almost all of that buildup to it without the sex on the page. I could probably count on one hand, maybe with three fingers, all the books in all four of the series that actually have the act of sex in them. Most of these don't. To answer your question, my website is called Brown Sugar books. My company is called Brown Sugar Limited. Brown Sugar means so much to Black folks. I got Brown Sugar from D'Angelo. Brown Sugar is a saying that we have. It's an emotion. It's a way that we are. It's a feeling. When you walk down the street and someone calls you Brown Sugar, you know what that means. For me, there wasn't really any shame because, one, I'm kind of shameless in the best possible way. I am without shame. It's hard for people to shame you when you are without shame because you stand on your truth. I look at this collection, and they have defined a generation of writers. You look at the writers I've worked with, and every one of them is working in the industry right now. Zane. When I worked with Zane, Zane wasn't edited. First she couldn't find a publisher and then her book sold so well that she was then pretty much packaged by her publisher now. She's not really edited. When I worked with Zane, it was the first time she had worked with an editor, and her story and Brown Sugar is very different from what you will find in things for self-published books and some of her books now. There's a difference to working with a book editor, to be honest. Again, not at all ... On my website, you'll see all my books. Also, I'm a ghost writer. I write for a lot of other people, and they can go and see all the books that I've written. If someone would rather not work with me because I can work in a particular genre very well, then that's probably not someone I should work with. Kenrya: Yes, that's fantastic. I think it's heartening at least for me to hear. I think when we first started talking about doing this podcast, I had a little bit of hesitation because it can be seen as a deviation from the work that I typically do. It really came down to, what you were just talking about, it's a part of a whole, and it is a way that you bring your whole self to the table when you do this work alongside all the other work that you do. Making that conscious decision to not shame yourself and not let anyone else bring shame into the equation is pretty powerful, I think. Carol: I agree. It's part and parcel with who we are as women, as mothers, as sisters, as daughters, as wives. It's this emotionality, the sexuality, the sexual part of who we are is part of who we are. As writers, we have to be able to explore that as people. We have to be able to explore that and have conversations around it. That is actually what intimacy is. Quite often, that's what's missing from the sexual equation. I'd rather we bring more of that in than anything else, then everything else would be better. I agree with you. Sometimes you do have to think a little bit about it, but honestly, it depends on what you're doing and how you're doing it and who you are. That's what informs your work. Kenrya: Speaking of shameless, when we first met in person, I told you that I had Brown Sugar in my special pile in my room. Carol: I remember. Kenrya: How does it make you feel that your work is with people in some super intimate times? Carol: I love it. I love it. It's been almost 20 years and I went on a 10-city book tour. This book speaks to 18-year-olds and 55 and up. I had women of every generation talking to me in a real way, and they would clutch my hair and say thank you. That's how I do know. Auntie and grandma, like thank you, for just talking about real relationships between Black people just told in different ways. We were so tired of these flat one dimensional characters and women only looking in a particular way and men only acting in a particular way. We know that's just not the truth. I feel at this point ... I got over it my first few readings and signings. Of course, you judge the crowd. They're going to be different in Atlanta than they will be in Houston or Dallas. You judge the crowd. I know what I'm going to read and I know what I'm going to talk about. Inevitably, at the end, it becomes a discussion about relationships between men and women. That's exactly what I wanted it to be. That's very, very exciting for me, but that's what it's really about. Communication, talking about things that we don't talk about and didn't talk about or was only talked about in one way. Erica: Let's just dive a little deeper and talk about the story that we're reading for this episode, Luzette. Why did you choose to include that story in the collection? Carol: I think that I included that story in the collection more because I loved the writer, to be honest. I chose my writers and then they sent in the stories, to be honest. It just really resonated with me in a way that it was something I had not read before and really felt the voice was wonderful, the characterization was amazing. I hadn't seen anything like it before, and it was very exciting to me. Really that's what I did with all of my writers and their stories. Some names you will know and some names you will not know, but they brought something to the table that I had not seen, and that's what I saw in Luzette. Erica: Cool. This story is a little different from some of the other stories that we typically read for the show. This one is written from a male porn star's point of view, but we were really interested in Luzette and her being a boss who just took what she wanted. Tell me a little bit. Do you relate to her, and can you tell me about maybe a time where you had to have something or someone and just went for it? Carol: I think that's like all my life. It's all my life, quite honestly. I am the trifecta. I'm a Black immigrant woman. It's the trifecta. Leaving a place ... When I was in Jamaica, it was a third world country and there was curfew. There were militia. It was a place where you wanted to leave. Jamaica is beautiful. Please go. It's gorgeous. Back when I was a young girl there, it was a very different place. When you actually get out of a place and get somewhere else that you really want to be and you travel in a plane at five years old and you end up in a whole different country in a whole different place and then you have these struggles with language, with identity, with culture. I was Jamaican before it was cool to be Jamaican, and there were all of these dynamics between American Blacks and West Indian Blacks that is I don't think it's as bad as it used to be, but it was certainly there. Ending up going to a school that was very white, I went to South Hampton College on Long Island, very white, and working in corporate America, which is also very white. I have always had to push myself in a way where not getting to where I wanted to be was simply not an option. I would get there by any means necessary. That's not this huge dynamic thing. It's really just keeping it going, like going and getting a typing test all summer and being able to get that other job because I didn't get that other job. Just keeping it moving. We're Black women. We know. Kenrya: That's what we do. Carol: We figure it out. We'll get it done. That's always been my MO. Whether it is a relationship, a job, an apartment, a situation, whatever that is, you just keep it moving and you get it done. Perhaps that's a part of my immigrant background, where things look really bleak but you just keep it moving. I have taken that background with me wherever I go. You just get it done. Kenrya: It's actually one of my favorite things about you. Carol: I do know if I can't get it done this way, I'll get it done that way. Erica: A very important quality to have in an editor. Carol: When you're a Black woman, absolutely. I like surprising people. I've learned there ... I seem really laid back, but I am a very strategic person. I read about strategy. I practice strategy. It is very interesting to me. I know all about Machiavelli. I know all about the makings of the court. It is really intriguing to me on many levels to see how people operate. I've read the 48 laws of power 48 times. This is a part of my character that I don't think people know a lot about, but I'm always working behind the scenes, getting things done. I love having a sense of purpose, and I love figuring out creative ways to get things done. As an editor, you have 50 different jobs all at the same time. It's good to know how to work and how you work best. Yeah, it keeps me creative and allows me to do what I love, as I said, in many different ways, in many different incarnations. It's exciting to me. Kenrya: The story of Luzette is based in an optometrist's office. Our final question for you is what's the most unexpected place you've had sex? Carol: Oh. You know I'm a Scorpio, right? I'm a Scorpio. Erica: No such thing as an unexpected place for a Scorpio. Carol: We are faithful. We are kind. We are the best friends you could ever possibly have. Kenrya: That's true. Carol: We've got you. Just don't fuck with us. Erica: My mother is a Scorpio. I know that. Carol: We got your back. Still waters run deep. Okay? We're cool, but I got my shank so I will shank you if you deserve it. If not, I will give you the shirt off my back. We get a bad rap. Yes, we're very sexual, but we can go without sex for a really, really long time because sex is important to us. I don't want to waste it. I've gone for two years without sex. I'm a Scorpio. I've gone for two years without sex. I nearly killed a man I got with. My point is I don't want to squander it. I would rather have no sex than bad sex. I'm not gonna lie to you. I have other things I can be doing. Kenrya: You can be doing it yourself. Let's be honest. Carol: Let's a lot of other things to do. Exactly. I can do it myself. The strangest place I have ever had sex. I really have to think about that because I'm not really prudish about sex. I started out that way. We were colonized so we have a lot of these British influences that I grew up with my parents. My mom was a prude, and I grew up with this idea that you don't have sex until you're married. Sex is not fun. Sex is a chore. You do it to get it over with. You do it to have kids. I came into it with all of these negative stereotypes. I was a virgin in college. Luckily, I started at 15 so I want to get that out. Yeah, I started at 15, thank God. I was a virgin when I got to college, but I wanted to experiment. I was like, what is all this sex stuff? I had no idea. Nobody talked to me about it. I didn't know anything about it. I've had sex in a number of different locations. However, I have not actually had a lot of partners. I was that girl who was in a 10-year relationship three times. Kenrya: Same. With niggas that didn't deserve. Carol: For real. In the back of trucks. I went to South Hampton so we would drive out on to the beach and the back of a truck, at the top of the Statue of Liberty. Erica: Wow. Carol: That's when we had to walk all the way up. That was something we wanted to try. On the pier at Red Hook. That was cool. I like water, so I've got a water thing. I am a water sign. During a birthday shower. Was it a wedding? A baby shower, during a baby shower, we were in the closet. We did that. For me, it's not really like I'm thinking about the place. Kenrya: It's just what you want to do. Carol: It's either a plan or the moment hit and we're like, where are we going? I can't really think of a place that was- Kenrya: Those are great places. Carol: To me, that's normal. The strangest place might be my bed. I've got so many other places to go and so many other things to do. For me, sex is about being comfortable, being intimate, experimenting, having fun. There's nothing sexier than having fun in bed. That makes all the difference. Kenrya: That's dope. Thank you so much for joining us. That was our last question. Carol: Thank you for having me. Kenrya: Where can people find you and your work? Carol: My website, brownsugarbooks.com, you can find all of my work there. You can also find me on Facebook as well. I post about writing. I post about editing. I'm always happy to chat about any type of book ideas. Please take a look at my website, and I hope you are continuing to read the Brown Sugar series. They're still out there and doing really well. Kenrya: We have all four. Carol: Don't forget "Wanderlust," which is about travel. These are erotic travel tales, "Wanderlust." Kenrya: I might end up going somewhere from there too, just be forewarned. Carol: Yeah, travel. That's a good one. Kenrya: Your own Twitter @CarolATaylor117, right? I said two, as in also. That's my bad. Thank you. Carol: That's my 117. Thank you, guys. I really think this is wonderful what you're doing. It's sad that we feel like we have to have a separate space or a safe space to be able to talk openly about sex and sexuality. That to me is just a part of hegemony. We need to be able to talk about anything that we want to talk about, especially something as intimate as sex. Kenrya: Unfortunately, that's not there. Like you created it, we're trying to carry that on. Carol: Keep it going. Absolutely. You are. Thank you guys very much for this. I do appreciate it. Keep fighting the good fight and doing the good work. Erica: Thank you. Kenrya: Thank you. Carol: Thank you. Erica: This episode was produced by us, Erica and Kenrya, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. Every five-star review posted on Apple podcasts between now and July 31st, 2019 will be entered into a raffle to win a copy of one of the books we read on the show. We're giving away five books. Just post your review and email a screenshot to theturnonpodcast@gmail.com to enter. Please subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app. Follow us on Twitter @theturnonpod and Instagram @theturnonpodcast and find links to books, transcripts, guest info and other fun stuff at theturnonpodcast.com. Holla.
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Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES In Episode 3 of The Turn On, we read "Luzette” by Darrell Dawsey, which appears in Carol Taylor's "Brown Sugar 4: Secret Desires." Then we reminisce about all the moments when we had no choice but to give into our own secret desires, location be damned. Resources: The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information. TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Come here, get off. Erica: Welcome to The Turn On Podcast with your hosts Erica and Kenrya. This week we're reading from "Brown Sugar 4: Secret Desires," which was published in 2005. The short story we are reading is "Luzette," by writer Darrell Dawsey. We picked this one because it portrays a strong woman taking exactly what she wants. So, get yourself together, sit back, and enjoy. Kenrya: Luzette, by Darrell Dawsey. She was a sexy Latina with a mane of dark hair, eyes flashing like embers, 100 watt smile, body by StairMaster. Afro-Cuban, I guessed. She was a new assistant in my eye doctor's office. A welcome relief from the overweight assistant and the pimple faced receptionist who usually greeted me. From the moment I walked through the door I noticed her. All short, and compact, and fine, her lab coat fighting a losing battle to conceal her voluptuous frame. I tossed her a friendly nod, gave that gorgeous body a quick once over, and began moving slowly around the office. I was feeling her, but I wasn't going to sweat her. It turned out I wouldn't have to. Her eyes never left me. Everywhere I walked in that office, from the front door to the glass display case, her stare was in hot pursuit. Occasionally, I shoot her a glance just to let her know a brother knew what was up, then look away. I didn't want her feeling too self-conscious. The way I figured is, she'd probably seen me in a movie, but was too shy to say anything. I get that a lot. Women will recognize me, but pretend not to because they don't want anyone to know that they watch that kind of stuff. Instead, they usually just stare. Flattered, I held back a smile and turned my attention to a pair of Gucci frames resting in the plexiglass display case. Then I settled down a chair, filled out some paper work, and waited for them to call me to the counter for my checkup. The whole time I could feel her smokey eyes burning through my clothes. At one point during my visit she walked over, touched my arm, and asked if everything was okay. I grinned and nodded, then watched her as she turned her attention to adding new frames to the display case. And the second her eyes had met mine, I knew that my initial hunch was right. The sense of familiarity was palpable. She recognized me, cool as she was, for a brief moment she had registered the look. Everyone in my line of work gets the look if they stay in it long enough. The look is a mixed bag of countenances. One expression boded over others. It's one part recognition, that wide eyed sense that, "Hey, I know you from somewhere." It's also one part realization when the person figures out exactly where they know your face from. The raised eyebrows tend to give this away. Then of course, there are the responses. The knowing laughs, or the red-faced titters, the uncomfortable body shifts, or the sweaty palms. As much as I've seen the look, I still never know quite how to respond to it. Do I smile? Do I wave? Do I turn away? Maybe one day I'll just walk up, extend my hand, and say, "Hi, I'm a porn actor. Perhaps you've seen my work?" After 10 years and 1100 flicks, I'm not shy about what I do, and I'm damn sure not ashamed. I am weary though. I hate having to sidestep the steaming piles of assumptions people tend to toss in my way. I mean, if it isn't the voyeuristic husbands offering you $2,000 to lick butter off their wife's calves, it's the morality police accusing you of stealing their teenager's virtue. People are entitled to their opinions about who I am, and what I do, but I prefer not to indulge them. I love the advantages my work presents, the parties, the cash, the sex. But for every perk, there's also a disadvantage. Whatever the case though, my carping didn't apply to this woman. In her I saw nothing but sheer carnal curiosity. There were no lewd jokes or autograph requests, no morality speeches or judgemental sneers. Just a fuck you stare that triggered chills along my spine. I wasn't about to come on to her too strong. Sure, she may have seen me before, but she may not really have given a shit. I certainly didn't. I was more preoccupied with figuring out how I'd ask for her phone number when my checkup was done. The fat assistant called me for my exam. I got up, handed her some paperwork, then followed the dark-haired beauty to the back of the office. She ushered me into an examination room and gestured toward a plush swivel chair, "My name's Luzette." She said, as I settled into the seat. She smiled, shook my hand, then began fussing with the eye exam machines. She then turned to me and then started tossing out the standard pre-exam questions. How was my sight? When was the last time I had my eyes checked? Blah, blah, blah. Even as I answer I could see her eyes narrowing, intensifying. Luzette fidgeted in her chair, her tongue swept quickly across glossed lips. She leaned closer, penlight in hand. Her neck smelled of perfume, her breath like mint. My dick stiffened instantly. The exam proceeded routinely enough with me chatting and Luzette guiding me through a battery of tests. She told me a little about herself, when she started the eye doctor's office, what she was hoping to do when she finally left there. Not once did she let on that she might have seen me before. She was cordial, sweet even, but as the exam proceeded she became more professional. The intensity that I had felt from her earlier now seemed to have waned. Maybe Luzette wasn't feeling me after all, maybe I had just mistaken curiosity for lust. "I'll be right back." She said as she stepped out of the room. I slumped in my seat, waiting for her to come back and send me home. I began to wonder if I had been wrong about her, about that look she had given me. Maybe she was just being nice, just keeping a customer happy. I'd already given up on seducing Luzette when I heard her heels clicking on the hallway floor outside the exam room. When she walked back into the room Luzette's expression had changed yet again. The fire had returned to her eyes. Her tongue was now working its way slowly across her top lip. The stare that had threatened to singe me when I had first strolled into the office, it was back; and this time it was more intense than ever. I smiled and stared back. My heartbeat picked up. My dick, which has softened, stirred again. "So, you weren't going to tell me, were you?" Luzette said, closing and locking the door beyond you, "You just thought you were going to get out of here without me saying something, huh? I know who you are." I shrugged, "What was I supposed to say," I asked, "I don't just go around announcing that I fuck for a living. Not to say that I haven't been seriously considering that option lately." Luzette chuckled and sat in the chair next to me. She studied my face for a second, then reached out and touched my beard, "Maybe not that, but you could have said something. You know? Because when I saw you, I kept asking myself if you were the guy in all those movies that my boyfriend has. I've seen you, I don't know how many times." I laughed softly and caressed her hand, which was still on my face. I move down her arm and began rubbing her shoulder. I felt her stiffen, but she didn't withdraw, "Truthfully, I don't even like most of them men I see in those movies." She continued, her voice a smokey whisper. Her strong hands running over my head now, "Most porn is made with guys in mind, not women. It gets so bad I sometimes find myself getting off on the women right along with my boyfriend." "How so?" I ask. She laughed again, "I mean, how can the guys who make those envision their ideal as some perky blonde with big tits, or some chocolate model with a heart-shaped ass, and then think we women are secretly pining away for some crystal meth addict, wearing nothing but two tattoos, a Budweiser belly, and his black dress socks? What the hell is all that about?" She leaned in closer, her minty breath wafting under my nose. Her hand had made its way from my head, down my shoulder, and over to my bicep. "But it seems like things are getting a little better for us." She squeezed my arm admiringly. It took all my willpower to resist the childish urge to flex and tell her my gym schedule, but I kept quiet as she continued, "I've been watching you for about three, four years now, and you haven't disappointed me yet. All I can say is, 'Bravo.' Looks like somebody finally got the memo." My dick was rapidly turning to Quikrete. Her caresses were mostly to blame, but I was also turned on by her frankness and her aggressiveness. She wasn't intimidated or deterred by what I do, she wasn't even unduly curious; she just seemed appreciative, like what I did actually mattered in her life. I smiled, struggling to conceal my pleasure. I wasn't doing anything, though, to hide my arousal. I casually leaned back so she could get a better view of the bulge in my pants, but her eyes never left mine, "So, do you always fuck like you do in those movies? Just going on, and on like that? Or is that just what you do when you're at work?" "Nah. To tell you the truth, I'm never off the clock. Ever." She pursed her lips and nodded slowly. I was making progress. I reminded myself to move slowly, to just get the number. After that, I was certain I'd see her again. "So what makes you ask?" I continued, "Your boyfriend doesn't give it to you like you like it, or something? Is that why you're all up in his porn stash?" I was surprised when she shook her head, "No, come on. That's too easy." She said, "I wouldn't be bothered if he couldn't satisfy me. It's not that he's a bad fuck or anything, but we've been together for six years now. And I just think we're... I don't know, comfortable with each other, I guess? It's good sex, but it's routine. We switch it up occasionally to keep things interesting, watch a few movies, try to learn new things. But he's familiar to me. I know him, how he feels, what he's thinking, what he wants to try. Sometimes I wonder what it must be like to just get fucked by somebody I hardly know, by someone I know will do what I want, how I want." She smiled, "I guess that's why I'm into porn. They represent an ideal scenario for me. No strings, no complications, just lots of fun and know-how. It's like getting tips from... I don't know, the pros, I guess." As she finished these last two words her gaze finally fell to my crotch. By now, I wasn't saying much of anything. There are times when a man doesn't need words. When only his body should be speaking for him. And this was one of those times. I looked at Luzette, licked my lips, then pulled her closer to me. Phone number be damned, I wanted that pussy. Right then, right there. I stood up from my chair and pulled her up with me, wrapping her in my arms. I leaned over and whispered in her ear, "So, what about the other people out in the office?" I asked, "Aren't they going to need this room for something? I don't want to get you in trouble." She shook her head, "The other assistant is out to lunch, and the receptionist never comes back here. Besides, there's another exam room. We've got this one to ourselves, unless you're scared of getting caught." I hesitated for a second, unsure about her take on the circumstances. Of course, I didn't care if people saw me. I looked at her and figured, "Fuck it." With that, I slid my tongue into her mouth. Her own embrace tightened around my waist, and she ground her pelvis against my dick. We kissed, rubbing each other, and grinding our hips together. I moved my hands over her ass, squeezing gently, and pulling her hard against me as I nibbled her neck. I felt her right hand slide from my waist and down my stomach. Her fingers worked furiously to unfasten my belt and then the button on my blue jeans. I could feel her nails brushing past my pubic hair as she slipped her hand down my underwear. She pulled my dick through the opening in my boxers and rubbed the head against her crotch, "Mm." Luzette moaned. Then she stepped back, squeezed my dick, and arched her eyebrows inquisitively. I looked back at her impassively and nodded. She moved toward me once more, kissing my neck, my chest, my stomach. She then slid down into a crouch and looked up at me. Her hand still working over my dick, her eyes pleading. I stroked her hair with one hand, put the other hand on my hip, then leaned back and closed my eyes as she took my dick in her warm mouth. She worked a dick like a pro as she deepthroated me. Every now and then she'd look up and tell me how good I tasted to her, and each time she did I just grabbed the back of her head, and shove her mouth back on my dick. Each time she'd jump back on it without delay. She must have sucked me for about 10 minutes before I slid out of her mouth. I took her hand and pulled her to her feet, then I started to unbutton her lab coat, "Don't worry about the coat." She said, "Take off my pants and fuck me." I shook my head. I wasn't about to rush through this pussy. I was going to fuck Luzette right, "I want to see your titties." I demanded, "I want to suck them until your nipples get really hard. And then, I want to fuck your tits." I felt her chest heave, then just pulled back in the lab coat, fell to the floor, revealing her green blouse and form fitting pants. I could see that her nipples were already hard. When I pinched them with my thumb and forefinger she moaned and licked her lips. After slipping off her shirt I took Luzette's hand and swung her lightly into the examining chair. I pulled a lever and the chair reclined. Straddling her and then cupping her titties around my dick, I began to pump. Slowly at first, thumbing her nipples with every stroke. She bent her head down and stuck her tongue out, trying to lick the head of my dick as it slid between her breasts. Finally, I stood Luzette up and turned her around. Kissing the nape of her neck I moved my hands over her breasts and down to her pants. I undid them and let them fall to the floor around her ankles. Pressing against her back, I slid my hand into her panties. They were soaking. Her pussy was dripping, the lips puffy, and covered with the same thick juices that were coating my hand. She breathed hard as I slid my middle finger along the slit of her pussy. I made little circles around her clit and felt her wiggle her ass against my dick. Then I pulled the crotch of her panties to one side and bent her over the exam chair she'd been sitting in, "You want this dick?" I asked. Luzette didn't answer, just nodded furiously and ground harder against me. I stooped down until my face was level with her asshole and kissed her full cheeks, biting each slightly. I lapped at her asshole, then blew hard into it, "Mm." She groaned. I turned my face into her pussy and began tonguing the slit. I pressed the tip of my tongue against her clit and sucked gently. Normally, I don't fuck with a woman's asshole too much the first we have sex. Many women still don't like to consider their ass as a sexual organ, associating anal stimulation with pain. But Luzette seemed like she really wanted to get loose, so I slipped the tip of my middle finger into her anus and waited for the response. Her reaction was to move her ass in little circles, urging me to finger fuck her harder. My fingers toy with her a bit more while my tongue was deep inside her pussy. By now, my mind was as engaged as my body. Every now and then Luzette would moan with sheer pleasure. I could barely contain myself as I thought about how she beautiful she was, how badly I wanted her when she first walked into the examination room. Now, here I was, my face between her shapely legs, bringing her to climax. When the anticipation overwhelmed me, I stood up. Luzette was still bent over, legs quivering, "Don't move." I commanded. I yanked her panties down to her knees, gripped my dick, and moved into her. As wet as she was, her pussy still made for a tight fit. She sucked in her breath as I pushed, "Damn." She groaned, "Damn." I pushed harder. I felt my dick sliding deeper, and deeper, until my pelvis was slamming against her ass. Every stroke made her butt jiggle; she moaned and grunted as I made my dick probe her walls, moving my hips sharply from left to right as I pounded away. I moved faster, watching her ass jump with increasing quickness, enjoying the sound of my flesh slapping against hers. Luzette bent over farther, pushing her face into the seat of the chair to muffle her groans, which were growing louder. I slapped her ass hard for good measure. Suddenly, I felt her legs start to shake and her ass buck. It was a struggle to stay on, but I managed to keep giving her the dick. Finally, she unleashed a moan that even a chair couldn't smother, her voice rising and surely falling out into the hallway. But I didn't care. I kept going, driven by the knowledge that I was inside her, that I made Luzette cum so hard. Moments later I felt myself on the verge of my own orgasm. My skin went cold and hot at the same time, and my muscles tightened. Luzette tossed me another of those looks and then smiled as I pulled out and then came on her ass. I shivered and spasm. I let loose a deep breath and stagger back against the door, my stomach glistening with our bodily fluids. I caught my breath after a few seconds as she adjusted her panties, pulled up her slacks, and put on her lab coat. I follow suit, buckling my own pants and fixing my shirt, "So, when can I call you?" I ask, pulling her into an embrace. Luzette shook her head, reminding me that she was involved. I almost roared with laughter. Here I was chasing a number, trying not to be too forward, and all the time she just wanted to fuck, "But," Luzette added, "I'll see you next time you come in and get your eyes checked, right?" "Damn straight you will." I said. She smiled broadly. Somehow, I knew we'd fuck again, but it would only be on her terms, on her time. I was a private passion, not one to be overindulged. She was writing the script, I just had to make sure not to flub my lines. Somehow, I knew I wouldn't. Then Luzette unlocked the door, and in her best professional detached voice told me I could finish up at the front counter, and let me half-stumble past her into the corridor. Luzette's pussy had been like a drug, and I was still buzzing. Hell, I was feeling so good I barely even noticed the receptionist and the fat assistant giggling at me from the examination room across the hall. All right, welcome back. We just listened to "Luzette," by Darrell Dawsey, which appears in Brown Sugar 4: Secret Desires. Erica: And that was a good one. Kenrya: It was. Erica: He did such a great job of just writing and explaining. Some of our stories are a little lighter, and this one is a little heavy handed. Kenrya: It's a fun romp. Erica: A little heavy handed. Kenrya: I thought it was fun romp. Erica: But not beating you over the head with it, it was done very well. This is one of my faves, primarily because it was unexpected. I didn't quite... I mean, I guess I knew that they were going to fuck, but that was just... Kenrya: It was a possibility that it could have just been about the anticipation, and then the sex didn't happen. Erica: Yeah. And this one was a good romp. Like you said. I know Luzette went home with a good story, and the fact that she had this guy, who's a sex worker, porn star, weak in the knees... Kenrya: Right? Erica: Was just... Oh. Kenrya: Bad bitch. Erica: Bad bitch. Go Luzette. I also found it interesting that this is written from the male point of view. But, I liked that Luzette was just, "This is what I want, and so we're going to take it." And didn't care much about trying to do this, "Oh, let's talk. Let's be friends." You know, like, "Let me follow up." No, she was like, "Thank you, I'll see you again." Kenrya: "Thank you for your services. Appreciate you." Erica: "Thank you. Come again." Yeah. Kenrya: "Actually, that's going to be all." Erica: Like, "So, what you about to do?" Kenrya: "Because I'm about to go back to work." Erica: Yeah, "I got to go back to work. What are you about to do?" Kenrya: And I loved that her girls were out there listening. Erica: Yes. Because you know, if you work in a small office, or whatever, y'all know everybody's business. And they were just probably out there giggling and laughing at this man. Kenrya: I feel like when she walked out... Because, remember she walked out, and then she came back in? She was like, "I got him. Y'all going over here. It's fixing to go down." Erica: "Don't let nobody come in here." Kenrya: Exactly. Erica: Stay out of that room. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: Yeah. That was a good one. What are your thoughts? Kenrya: I thought it was good. It was interesting, because while I was reading it, I was like, "Oh, this really is..." I was getting into it as I was reading it, like, "Oh, this is well written. It's kind of funny." I love that he has a sense of humor about himself; and while he's explaining that he does sex work, it was interesting to hear how he feels about that, and how that influences the way that he interacts with people. And not even just women, just people in general. I never thought about what it might be like to be a sex worker and then encounter people outside of that context, and how they might perceive you. And to hear it... Kenrya: I think at some point we'll do that with women who do sex work on the show too, but to hear that from this man's perspective, I thought, was pretty interesting. I liked that he... Yeah, he talked about her body, but he, more so, talked about, like, he liked the way that she... Erica: Tasted and felt. Kenrya: Yeah, and even before the sex, that he liked her attitude and that she was cool. Erica: And the way she responded. Kenrya: Yeah, and I liked that, because I think that oftentimes, and it's, honestly, part of the reason why... I know, I love porn. But why, sometimes, erotica appeals to me over porn, in certain instances. Because so much of that... Men are super visual, although, I'm visual too. But, you know, with them it's all about the closeup of the pussy. You know what I mean? Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: So, that he wasn't just focused on her individual body parts, that he literally was talking about her, and viewing her as a whole person, even before he had even learned what her name was. That was sexy to me. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Yeah. And there is an element of flirting and foreplay that was taking place out in the lobby, I guess, of the reception area. Kenrya: Yeah, when she was staring at him. Erica: Yeah. And that is so sexy. I think one of the difficulties as a single woman, you're like... The flirting part is difficult, and awkward. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: Flirting is always awkward. But the older you get... Kenrya: I feel like it's not awkward for you, though, you're a huge fucking flirt. Erica: I am a flirt, but I am a very overt flirt. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: I don't do subtle flirt. I'm like, "Hey, how that beard feel?" You know. Kenrya: I want y'all to understand that's literally something that she said to somebody, but it was a little bit more graphic than that. Erica: It was definitely graphic. Kenrya: It worked. Erica: Yeah. And so, the idea of the flirting, the coy cat and mouse game that was going on, was such a turn on. And just a slow build to a very hot scene. Kenrya: And that he picked up on it. I know for me, one of the ways that I flirt is that I make eye contact. I was trying to explain this to my friend the other day, I was like, "You know, I don't..." Because he was asking me what somebody was wearing, or some shit, and I was like, "I don't fucking know." And he was like, "What do you mean?" I was like, "As a woman walking around, I do not make eye contact with men, unless I already know them." Like on the street and shit. Because a lot of men take that as a fucking invitation. And he noticed it, but he noticed it as flirting, and he didn't immediately jump to, "Oh, I'm fixing to fuck her." And he wasn't gross about it, and I think a lot of times that's what happens. Kenrya: I liked that it was kind of a realistic depiction of the way that a lot of women, who are not as comfortable and overt with it as you are, that's how we flirt. I sustain eye contact. That means something for me. Erica: That's so funny that you say that. Because I have lots of eye contact with men, and it goes back to my, "Always trying to make sure some crazy shit ain't about to go down." Kenrya: You mean just being a nigga, keeping your head on a swivel? Erica: I check a man out. I need you to know that I see you, because in case some shit go down, nigga, I can identify you. Kenrya: Oh my God. Erica: It's so horrible. Kenrya: It's not horrible. Erica: And they'll probably see that and think, "Oh, she's checking me out." Kenrya: "Oh, she's..." Yeah. Erica: And I'm like, "No, you look a little weird, and if you're trying to put a bitch in a choke hold, I got a description for police." Kenrya: Really? Bitch, what I have found is anytime, any fucking time, I make direct eye contact with a man that I don't know, he takes that shit as an invitation. Erica: Yeah. But I do have men that walk up and try to talk, and sometimes I play, and sometimes I'm like, "No. I was looking at you to make sure that I can identify you. Get the fuck on." You know? So, yeah, I do have men approach me, and I think it's not necessarily... I mean, I am a bad bitch. Kenrya: Yes, bitch. Erica: But it's not because I'm some hot goddess. Kenrya: Is it though? Kenrya: It's because I look at a motherfucker in the eye. Kenrya: Isn't it though? Erica: Well it is. But I look at him in the eye, and they probably look at that as like, "Oh." Kenrya: An invitation, yeah. Erica: Because I say all the time, "What about me makes..." I have had some weird ass men approach me. Kenrya: It's because you're making all that eye contact. Erica: Yeah, and I'm like, "What about me says you can approach me?" Kenrya: Mm, doofy nigga. Come talk. Erica: Bitch, you looked a bitch in the eye. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: You gave them the fucking bat signal. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: I did not realize that. Kenrya: Yes, yes. Erica: Oh. Kenrya: That brings the niggas to the yard. Mind blown. Erica: Mind blown. Kenrya: It does, though. Yeah, so I am very pointed about it. I keep my eyes slightly averted because it seems to be a really strong signal for a lot of men. Erica: Huh, okay. Kenrya: Yeah, ain't that something? So, I liked that that was the way that she flirted, and that there was this kind of coy, "I see you. I see you see me, see you." Erica: My shit would have been like, "So, yeah. In Booty Talk 89, you did this thing where you spun a bitch on your dick. You want to go back and try?" Kenrya: Let's try that. We got some space in the back. Erica: Yeah, sorry. Yeah, we've got some space. We can try it out here, he obviously ain't shy. No... Kenrya: And so, that's what was really, I think, part of why we picked this episode, is that they had sex in an interesting place. Erica: Yes. Kenrya: Right. Erica: Yeah, the eye doctor. Kenrya: An eye doctor's office, on the fucking exam table. Which is dope. Like, he said, "I pushed a lever and the thing..." I'm like, "Yes. You can have some fun with that." Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: I feel like they didn't have enough fun with that. Erica: No, but they had some good fun. Kenrya: Yeah. Well, because he could stand up straight. Well, no it probably don't go that high. Erica: This bitch over here about to draw diagrams, and be like, "Well, if you invert your leg 30 degrees." Kenrya: I was thinking about some things. Erica: Oh my gosh. Kenrya: It's fine, it's fine. So, that makes me wonder, what's the most interesting place where you've had any type of sex? So, it doesn't have to be full on penetration. Erica: See, the problem is I can't really tell you without... Kenrya: Incriminating yourself? Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: You don't have to say the city. Erica: In an elected official's office. Kenrya: Oh. Erica: Multiple times. Kenrya: Damn. Erica: Without said elected official. Kenrya: Right, just in their office while they were away. Erica: Yeah. It doesn't even feel wild or strange, because that was my office-fucking spot. Kenrya: Shut the fuck up. Erica: Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to think if there was anything else interesting. Something else will probably come. I'm like Luzette, if I want it, I take it. Kenrya: You take it. Yeah. Erica: What about you? Kenrya: Girl. Erica: Oh my gosh, if you don't say it I'm going to tell you. Kenrya: Which one? Kenrya: No, you share what you want. Kenrya: I had sex in the botanical garden. Kenrya: Okay. Kenrya: That was a lot of fun. Erica: That's what I was thinking of. Kenrya: Yeah, with those... And it was under the moonlight, with the breeze hitting my bare ass. Erica: Something about doing things outdoors is fun. I love day drinking outside. Kenrya: Day drinking, day fucking. Erica: Yeah, outside? Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Yeah. I think I have a bit of a voyeurism thing. The idea of it being so quiet. We could hear people walking by on the street, literally a foot away. And we over here fucking somewhere we're really not supposed to be. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: That was hot as shit. Where else? I don't know how to say this without incriminating... Well, fuck it. I don't give a shit. In the capital building in Washington D.C., in various places. Various closets, and bathrooms, and observation rooms. Yeah. Places that y'all might have seen on television during hearings. Erica: On a tour, on the capital tour. Kenrya: Lots of that. Erica: Yeah, you was fucking in there. Kenrya: Oh yeah, lots of that. On lots of super old historical furniture. Erica: Done lots of car sex. Kenrya: Oh yeah, lots of car sex. Including out in the open, with people walking by. Lots of that. Erica: Yeah. Lots of car sex. Kenrya: Where else have I had sex that was interesting? Various bathrooms, and you know. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Because sometimes you just got to make it happen. Erica: Movie theater. Kenrya: Oh yeah. Did that during... Oh, college? Have I had sex in the movies since college? I don't think I have. Was yours recent? Erica: No, it wasn't recent. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: Yeah, I've gotten fingered in public. Kenrya: Oh yeah, the club. Erica: Oh shit Kenrya: Bitch. Erica: I literally had a flashback of like... We both looked at each other, I was like, "Did you just become my best friend?" Kenrya: Yes. Erica: Yeah. So we went to this club years ago. Kenrya: In Miami. Erica: We were at this club, I meet this dude, and we're just... I don't even want to say we was vibing, because there was no conversation. Kenrya: We were drunk, drunk. Erica: We were drunk, feeling the music, you know, titties start sweating and shit. So, me and this dude find this elevator, and we're like, "Fine. We just going to go at it on this elevator." Kenrya: Nigga. Erica: So, we go and we get on this elevator, and we start kissing, he's finger fucking me, we're just getting it on. Bitch. The elevator goes two fucking floors. It was an elevator in a club that went from the first floor to the second floor, so we just kept going ding, ding, ding. And there was a bouncer upstairs, and every time the fucking doors would open, there I am, nigga's hand's in my pussy, my titty in my mouth, and he kind of looks. And then the seventh, eighth... This shit went on for a minute. After a while the bouncer was like, "Y'all got to get the fuck out." Come on. Kenrya: I mean, he gave y'all a lot of leeway. Erica: He gave us a lot of leeway, but he was like, "Look, I know y'all are tired of seeing me, because I'm tired of seeing y'all. Y'all got to go." Oh my god. It was so horrible. Kenrya: Wait. So, while she's doing this, I'm out in the car getting my pussy ate. It was a lovely night. Erica: Oh, to be young and reckless again. Kenrya: Oh lord, yeah. That was fun times. Erica: That was such a wild night. Kenrya: It was. Erica: Oh my god. Not that I totally forgot about it, but I totally forgot about it. Kenrya: But that happened, yeah. That was a whole last weekend. Erica: I think that was really... That was... Yeah. Kenrya: Have you had sex on a beach? Didn't you do it on... Or was that one of our friends? Erica: No, I left the beach to go. Because, sex on the beach is not cute. Kenrya: It's not. No. You get sand in places where it's not supposed to be. Erica: Sand is everywhere. Kenrya: That shit hurts. Erica: Don't nobody need no added friction. So, one of the things I liked about the story, this nigga ate ass. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: In a good way. Kenrya: Like, immediately. She didn't have to wait for it. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: She was just like, "Let's go." Erica: That was a good depiction of ass eating. Because... Yeah. Kenrya: And I liked that he said, he was like, "Usually I wait, but she seemed like she was trying to get it in." Erica: He wanted for her response. He tried it out. Kenrya: Exactly. Exactly. And he was like... Something I think is true, that a lot of women associate any type of anal play with pain. And I'm like, "There's nerves there, that shit feels fantastic if you know what you're doing, and you relax." And we already talked about anal on the first episode. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Yes, we are both fans. But, some nice ass eating, or even just a finger. Erica: Yeah, that was a good... Since we've got to do the ESPN analysis of their fucking, he played with it a lot before he went at it. Kenrya: Yes, there was lots of foreplay. She sucked his dick for 10 minutes. He didn't say how long that he was down there, but it seemed like there was lots of changing of positions, and adding of the fingers, and that didn't happen within the course of a minute. And for her to be dripping by the time it was time to have sex, he had put in some actual work. Erica: Yeah, yeah. That was a good one. Kenrya: Which, I guess, goes back to him being a pro, and knowing that you're not just fixing to stick it in. Erica: Yeah. Yeah. Kenrya: That's just the benefit of stepping out with a pro. If you're going to do it, at least it's worth it. Erica: Right? At least... Yeah. At least do it right. I wonder if porn stars... Because it's still acting, and because it's still a script, is there really... Kenrya: He said he's never off the clock. Erica: Oh. Yeah. Kenrya: I feel like that was mostly a line, but can you separate? You've got to be able to, though. Erica: I was down a Twitter hole, and this woman asked other sex workers, "How are you different as a sex worker? How are you different with a client versus in a relationship?" And interestingly enough, many of the sex workers said that they're more tame in relationships, than they are with clients. Because with clients, you know what you're there for. You get to get reckless, try out new things. Kenrya: Right. And there's no judgment, I would imagine. Or at least no fear of judgment. Erica: Exactly. But in a relationship it's more... Kenrya: Let things unfold over time. Erica: Yeah. Like how much does he want, you know. So, I think that's probably what made this situation so hot. She knows what she's getting, she knows what she wants. Kenrya: She's been watching him fuck for four years. Erica: He's like, "I'm going to give it to you." Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: You know, without, "Will he love me in the morning?" Kenrya: None of the fucking preamble. Erica: Without the Andre 3000, Where Are My Panties interlude. Kenrya: Exactly. She had her shit on before he even pulled up his pants. I was like, "Yes bitch." Erica: I love it. Kenrya: Yeah. Yeah, I love that she just went after it, and that he gave it to her. Erica: Yup. Kenrya: And understood his place. And when she made it clear, he said she just shook her head, and he was like, "Oh. Reminded me that she had a man already." I was like, "Yes, way to listen. Play your role." Erica: I ain't trying to fuck up your home. Don't fuck up mine. Kenrya: Right. Erica: Just give me what I want. Kenrya: Let it be. Erica: I love it. Kenrya: I thought it was dope. Erica: One of the things that we noted about Luzette is that she's a woman that goes after what she wants. Have you had a situation with a man, a boo, a partner, where y'all was somewhere, and you was just like, "You know what? We've got things to do, and they need to happen right now." Which probably resulted in a strange-place-fucking. Kenrya: Yeah, I'm kind of notorious for just saying it all the time, and I think it takes a special kind of person to fuck with me. I don't demure. There is a partner who I've been with, who, on our second date, I was just like, "So, I'd like to fuck you." And he laughed, and he was like, "Okay." Erica: "All right, like now?" Kenrya: Right? He did, he did, he was like, "Right now? This weekend?" He was really... Erica: "Do I need to go home and cleanup?" Kenrya: Yes. It took him a minute, he was a little taken aback. And then he laughed, and was just like, "Okay. We'll let's talk logistics." And I think they get over the initial shock of the bluntness once they realize I'm not thinking. If I want to have sex, I'm going to say it. And there have been some men who I think have... Erica: They enjoy the chase, they want the chase. Kenrya: Yeah, and they wanted, maybe, a softer touch. Like, "Oh, let me caress your head. Let me..." Erica: Act like you don't want it. Like, no. Kenrya: Yeah. I'm not going to do that, though. I do want it. I'm not going to pretend that I don't. Erica: Unless we're in a scene. Kenrya: Sure. If it's a scene, that's fine. But I want to have sex, and sometimes it's literally just me standing in front of you, and being like, "Okay, I want to have sex now. Let's do this." Erica: Make it go up, do I need to put your dick in my mouth? Kenrya: Yeah, that's fine. Let's go. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Yeah. In general, I find that they appreciate the directness. That they don't feel like they've got to dance around it. Like when you were in your 20s, where... God. I'm having vivid memories of niggas trying to tickle me, or trying to rub my back. Erica: Or falling asleep, and then they dick in your back. Kenrya: Yeah. I'm like, okay. I don't need the pretense, I don't need the preamble. We can just say what we want to do. And that's not dirty, unless you want it to be. Just like you could say, "Hey, let's do this." I can say, "Hey, let's do this." So yeah, I tend to. Sometimes that's how... We're in a car, at noon, on the side of the road, because your home is too far away and so is mine, and I want to do this right now. And so we do. And that is a thing. Erica: Tips hat to you. Kenrya: Thank you. Thank you. I have fun. What about you? Erica: Yeah. When I drink, I get fluffy. I get real... Kenrya: Loosey goosey. Kenrya: When I drink I love everybody. Kenrya: This is true. Erica: My friends get so tired of me, because I am like the drunk bitch like, "Look at me." Kenrya: She is. Erica: "Look at me right now. I fucking love you, I would fucking kill for you, and your fucking dog, and your cousin. Because I fucking love you." That's me when I drink. Kenrya: And you usually go to sleep for a little while. Erica: Huh? Kenrya: And then you usually go to sleep for a while. Erica: I fall asleep, and I wake back up, and I'm on. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: But, yeah. If we're out drinking, I get a little frisky. If I'm with my boo I get frisky, and yes, we've got to do it. So, I have had lots of car sex, lots of head on the way home. Kenrya: That's dangerous. Erica: I know it is. Kenrya: I mean, I've done it. Erica: It's so wrong. Kenrya: I always realize I'm taking my life into my mouth. Erica: And it was like, "Damn. If I get into a car accident, they're going to have to tell my granny that I died with a dick in my mouth." Kenrya: Your head was crushed between a dick and a steering wheel, bitch. Erica: Yeah, that ain't right. That's the only reason that I be trying to not do it, but I do it still. Kenrya: Yeah, you know. It's fine. So, how do you initiate it? Do you say it, like how I say it, do you grab dicks? Erica: I grab a dick. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: I definitely grab a dick and look them in the eye. Kenrya: Here we are, here we are. Erica: "Put this in my pussy." Kenrya: Bitch. Just like that? Erica: Yeah, "Put it in." No. But, yeah. I grab it, or I say, "Hey, let's fuck." Kenrya: "Let me see your dick." Yeah. Erica: I mean, I'm pretty overt about it. You know. Yeah, I am truly roleplaying when I'm on some, "I don't want to. Take it later." No, I'm generally... Especially if I'm feeling you, I'm generally always down. Especially if I'm on my period. Do you get horny as hell when you're on your period? Kenrya: I'm always horny. Erica: Huh? Kenrya: I'm always horny. Erica: Oh my god, I'm like a fucking monster. Kenrya: Toward the end I do see a little bit of an uptick, and it has resulted in not being able to wait. For sure. Put a towel down. Erica: Yeah, that's what towels are for. Kenrya: Yeah, there's a bit of an uptick. But my baseline is pretty high. Erica: Yeah, when you're with somebody you're just like, "Let's do it." Kenrya: Yeah. Yeah. I'm always kind of ready, unless I'm sleepy. The only thing that ever keeps me from having sex, honestly, is I be so fucking sleepy. Which is why I like day sex. Erica: I have a friend that was like, "Look. Either I'm fucking, or we fucking. But I'm fucking." Kenrya: Oh shit. I like it. Erica: And I'm like, "This is so wrong, but I can respect it." Kenrya: Yeah. I guess. No, I think that's part of why I'm partial to lunch sex. Because I'm fresh. Erica: We're all awake. Kenrya: Yeah. I'm not thinking about what time I've got to get up in the morning. So, I kind of hit a wall when I'm sleepy. It happened last night, where I go from being fine, and then I'm telling you I'm fine, but my eyes are really going in different directions. And there ain't too much I can do once I hit that wall. So, a lot of times I be trying to do it before... Erica: It's coming, it's coming, it's coming, I see the sleep coming. Yeah. Kenrya: Yeah. It ain't no, "Oh, let's get comfortable in the bed, and sit here, and talk." No nigga. Erica: No. If you want this pussy... Kenrya: Let's get to it. And then we can try to lie here, and talk, and I will probably fall asleep. But, in the morning, I'm going to be hype; and I'll probably suck your dick, so we'll be fine. But that's really the only thing that keeps me from partaking. I just be so tired. I'm busy as fuck, all the time. Erica: Yeah. If I'm tired... I'm never too tired to fuck, because if I'm tired, I'm like, "This is going to be some good sleep." Kenrya: That's a good way to look at it. Erica: Like, "Oh, this sleep is going to be so good." Kenrya: Yeah. I feel like I'll end up being on some lazy shit. Which is sometimes fine, to just lie there, and let your partner handle it. Erica: Yeah. I'm sleepy, I'm tired. Kenrya: You know this coming in. Erica: You know this. Kenrya: So you can make the decision. Erica: So, you're going to get the fish. Kenrya: Yeah. But I try not to do that, I feel bad. But yeah. Erica: No, because you're going to get some lazy dick in a minute. So just give him some lazy pussy. Kenrya: Have I ever got lazy dick? Erica: You might not... Well, you know. I'm thinking about your current partnership. Kenrya: Oh yeah. No, I ain't never got lazy dick in my current situation. Whew, Lord. I haven't gotten lazy dick, but there was someone who I was with, who you know well. So, I eventually broke up with him because he was a lazy person in general. But, I remember at one point he complained about giving me head, because he said it was too much work, and it made too much of a mess to clean up. Erica: One, you've got to put in some work for this pussy. Two, the mess is a part of the fun. Kenrya: It is part of the fun. Erica: Oh my gosh. Kenrya: Yeah. So, the Kenrya of 2019 would just never fuck that nigga again. But the Kenrya of, I don't know, that was... Erica: 2000. Kenrya: Yeah, around that time, college. Was just like, "Bet. I'm not sucking your dick no more." Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: I never sucked his dick again, he only lasted a few more months after that. Erica: Yeah, because it's like, how are you going to half-ass sex? Kenrya: I was like, "Well then, we ain't go no reciprocity, then we can just literally do penis in vagina, I can get off, and then we can keep it moving." Erica: Yeah, once that happened you might have slapped a time bomb on the side of that joint. Kenrya: Yeah, it was just counting down. So, I kept up with that part of it, but there was no... And I'm really good at head. So, he was depriving himself of a fantastic time. Erica: Yeah, because that's the thing. Sucking dick, that's when I get to show off. I put my hair in a ponytail, and I be like, "Look, let me show you what the fuck I can do." Kenrya: Yes. That's why early relationship sex sucks. So, you know, I do the whole get tested, blah, blah, blah. I feel like one of the biggest tools in my fucking tool belt has been removed from me. Erica: You're fighting with one hand. Kenrya: Yeah. That's why I'm like, "Let's get tested so I can actually go to work." Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: And then I've had men who are like, "We'll we can just use a flavored condom." And I'm like, "First of all, that's too small. Second of all, you're not going to get the full effect." You can't feel the wetness. That's part of what makes it intense. Erica: I'm a pro. I like gag, spit, all of that. Kenrya: Absolutely. All of the things. And you're missing out on all of that if you have a condom on. It literally feels like I can't do all my tricks if I can't do that trick. I need to get some more tricks to the bags, maybe. I don't know. But that's my favorite trick. Erica: That's like entry level trick. Kenrya: And it's not even just, "Oh, okay, I get to show off." But I really enjoy it at this age. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: It's fun, it gets me excited because I get to see how much pleasure I'm bringing. When you start squirming... Whew, god. Erica: Whew. Kenrya: That's a turn on to me. So, I feel like not only are you missing out, but I'm missing out. So it's a really key thing for me. So yeah, I just deaded it. That's the only person I can think of that was ever lazy in sex in any way. Erica: I've had a lot of lazy fuckers. Kenrya: Yeah? Damn. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Well, hopefully you were more like the Kenrya of 2019, and said, "Fuck them niggas." And kept it moving. Erica: Oh, I wasn't. But a bitch done learned and now... Kenrya: Well, we learn, we grow. That's growth. Erica: Growth. And now, it's like, "Look. Either we all sweating, and hot, and fucking..." Kenrya: Or we aint. Ain't nobody. Erica: We aint. Yeah. Kenrya: Oh, lord. Erica: All righty, so, on that note. We'll end it on the dick sucking note. Kenrya: It's a good note. Erica: It's a good note. Well, thank you for joining us for this week's episode of The Turn On. Kenrya: Yes. Next week our guest will be... Erica: Oh, next week our guest will be Carol Taylor, the fantastic and fabulous editor of the Brown Sugar Series. She has a series of Black erotic books, so, really excited to talk to her and learn more. Kenrya: Yeah, she really created this genre in a lot of ways. Erica: Yup. Kenrya: Yeah. So that'll be dope. Make sure you all come back next week to hear from her. Erica: Yes. So, this is Erica and Kenrya, two hoes. Kenrya: Making it clap. Erica: This episode was produced by us, Erica and Kenrya, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. Every 5 star review that you post on Apple Podcast between now and July 31, 2019 will be entered into a raffle to win a copy of one of the books that we read on the show. We need your help, and we're giving away five books, you just need to post your review, and then email a screenshot of it to theturnonpodcast@gmail.com to enter. And please take a minute to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app, follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod, and Instagram @theturnonpodcast, and find links to books, transcripts, guest info, and other dope shit at TheTurnOnPodcast.com. Peace.
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Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES In Episode 2.5 of The Turn On, we talk to “Push the Button” author Feminista Jones about BDSM, labels and building community. Resources:
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information. TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Come here, get off. Kenrya: So today, we're talking to Philadelphia based social worker, feminist writer, public speaker, and community activist Feminista Jones. Feminista is an award-winning blogger and author of Push the Button, which we're reading from today, a poetry collection called "The Secret of Sugar Water," and the newly released "Reclaiming Our Space: How Black Feminists Are Changing The World From The Tweets To The Streets." Feminista's work centers Black American culture, critical race theory, intersectionality, and women's health and wellbeing. Kenrya: Hey, Feminista. Feminista: Hello. Thank you for having me. Kenrya: Thanks for coming on. We're excited to talk to you. I feel like we've been following you and like sending each other stuff that you've tweeted for years. Feminista: That's dope. Kenrya: It's cool to have you on. Erica: Yeah, you're definitely my home girl in my head. So thank you for- Feminista: Well, now I'm home girl on the mic. Kenrya: Yay. Erica: Thank you so much. Kenrya: So, first can you tell us what are your preferred pronouns? Feminista: She and her. Kenrya: Awesome. Thank you. Feminista: And yours? Kenrya: I'm she and her. Erica? Erica: I'm she and her but I also appreciate all around bad bitch, so if that could be somehow incorporated. Kenrya: Got it. Feminista: I'm going to try my best. Kenrya: Okay. I just read that long, like yes, bad bitch bio, but in one sentence, what do you think of what you do, like if you could sum it all up in one succinct sentence, what is it? Feminista: I do bad bitch things. Kenrya: Yes! Yes, yes, yes, yes. Feminista: You know what, honestly I think at this point in my life I just am somebody who is trying to live out her dreams and help people along the way, if that makes sense. Kenrya: It does make sense. Feminista: I've had a lot of questions lately about "Is this what you've always wanted to do?" And for as long as I can remember yes, I've wanted to be a writer and I've also wanted to help people and this is like since I was like six years old, seven years old, and I've been lucky enough or committed enough to be able to do both and be successful at both. So, I think where I am right now, having recently turned 40, I am enjoying the fruits of my labor, being able to do both of those things. Kenrya: Word. That's what's up. So okay, you're based in Philly now, where are you from originally? Feminista: I am from New York City, born and raised. I was born in Queens, my mom and I, we moved around a lot when we were in Queens, but I went to public school there for elementary school and then we moved to The Bronx, and I really tell people that The Bronx really made me who I am. Queens was kind of an early introduction to things, particularly on the hip hop side because I always loved all the Queens artists from hip hop, but The Bronx really made me who I am and I lived most of my life in The Bronx. So everything from there, every time, whether I went away to school or college, every time I came back, it was always living somewhere in The Bronx. So I've spent the majority of my life in The Bronx and I definitely am a Bronx girl. Kenrya: Word. Would you ever go back, like to live for real? Feminista: I don't want to ever say never but that is not what I have. Living in New York City is no longer my ministry. Erica: I was just about to say "not your ministry." Feminista: No, it is ... I had this, and people ask me, why did I leave? And I said I feel like I have given New York all that I can and I have gotten from New York all I can get from it. A lot of that is under the context of being a social worker. I spend pretty much all my career there being a social worker in New York City and in a city that big there's all these different organizations, they're all kind of doing the same work. You're like just kind of drifting around but in Philadelphia where there are a lot of pressing issues, there's the opportunity to kind of be a big fish in a small pond and I felt that I could take a lot of what I had learned as a social worker in New York and bring that to Philadelphia and possibly help work on some of the issues going here. Kenrya: Word. What made you choose Philly in particular? Feminista: Well, I went to undergrad here. I went to he University of Pennsylvania for an undergraduate, and when I was here I had done some volunteering in west and north Philly and learned a lot about he issues, and I had friends here that were still here, I dated someone here for a few years, so I've always been closely connected with Philadelphia and so when I was thinking about where I wanted to move, thinking about proximity to my son who's still in New York City, Philadelphia really topped the list, cost of living is lower, fewer people. But it's a Black city. A lot of people don't talk about Philadelphia in those terms. They always talk about Washington, D.C. is chocolate city but Philly is like 43% Black right now, I think, and we have the highest Black Muslim population, there's so much about this city that is just quintessentially Black and I just love that. It's really hard for me to be in spaces where I'm one of a few or the only one. That really destroys my spirit. It's funny, funny story, I've been on tour for a few months for the book and I've gone to ... and also my speaking tour, and and I've gone to some really interesting places, and I remember going to Terre Haute, Indiana, to speak at Indiana State, and for the first 24 hours I was there I didn't see a single other Black person. Kenrya: Nope. Feminista: And I was talking with students and professors there, I was like how do you do it? And they're like, "Look, you've got to find your tribe but it's still really taxing." I was like I just can't do that. I can't go a whole day and not see Black people. That's not the life I want. Erica: And I notice it so much more. I'm originally from St. Louis, Missouri, and moved to D.C. and I've been here since college. And now I'm so ... And I don't think I was as aware of being in such white spaces until you kind of get home and you breathe and you see ... you're so used to seeing so many Black people that you're so much more aware of the absence of them when you're not around them. Feminista: I was just in St. Louis two weekends ago for a wedding and I had been there, like a few weeks before that, for a speaking engagement. I like St. Louis, I like the people there. The Black folks there were real cool. I really appreciated them. Erica: It was a good place to grow up but I definitely had to leave and I love my family but I needed a little bit of space. Feminista: I understand, I understand. I can see that. Yeah. But people were really nice to me there and I say that because that doesn't always happen. So I appreciate St. Louis. Erica: Oh wow, wow. I'm glad they put their best foot forward for you. Kenrya: I wonder how being in the city, living in a place that is very intentionally Black, like how much being in that space feeds your work? Feminista: It feeds it so much. When I first moved here I worked for a university doing anti-poverty policy work and pretty much 99% of the people I worked with were Black, right? So we have the highest poverty rate in the country of any large city, and so it's a serious issue here. So Blackness and poverty are so linked up here, it's kind of ridiculous. Not to say that there isn't a Black middle class or upper class but it's obviously racialized here in many ways. So that definitely informs a lot of my work and particularly with activism and things that I do around the city still, working with women and things like that, that Blackness is always present. Then as I'm connecting with different people and I'm sure we'll talk about more kink stuff but I've been able to find a very strong kink community here that is all Black people, and that's been really, really helpful, and finding those kind of even underground alternative kind of communities has been really great. So it's given me a lot of inspiration to finish the sequel to "Push the Button," which I've been working on. Erica: Oh. Kenrya: Oh good, we were definitely going to ask you about that. Feminista: No, it's actually been really dope. Hacking away, I cut my nails down, I was like I've got some writing to do. I was like, but definitely feeding in from that ... You know what it is? It's a comfort level. I think when I was in New York City I wasn't comfortable anymore. I was struggling. I was like I shouldn't be struggling. Making as much money as I was making I shouldn't have been struggling, like living paycheck to paycheck. Kenrya: It's a hard city. Feminista: I shouldn't have had all the mental health issues and struggles that I have. Not to say that I haven't had them here but in New York it was just a whole different level and then having to go outside and be around so many people all the time, it was just so draining. How do you go home and then be creative and be productive when you're just so drained? So Philadelphia here ... And then you know, Black folks here are nice. So you walk down the street, Sisters will randomly be like, "Oh girl, I love your skirt. Oh, I love those earrings. Oh, I love that hair." And they'll start a conversation like it's kind of like what people say about the South, you know how that is, but here in Philly that's just how people are, and when they say like brotherly love and sisterly affection, that comes from the Black people here. So I've definitely felt more comfortable, I settled in, I got a house, like I love my home. So definitely feeling it. Kenrya: Yes, that's dope. Erica: So, we've been ... I've been following you, like I said, you were my home girl in my mind, so I've heard you talk on other shows about your Dominant/submissive relationships, and so my question to you is how did you realize that one of the hats you'd come to wear was that of a submissive? Like how did that come about? Because I think we all have a bit of that in us but how did you realize this is who I am and what I want to do? Feminista: Well, it's a funny story because I no longer identify that way because I divested of the patriarchal bullshit, but anyway. Erica: Well! Kenrya: Surprise! Feminista: There was another show I was talking about that. Listen, I've been in this lifestyle, this kink and BDSM lifestyle for 21 years now. Evolution is going to happen, growth is going to happen. I've always identified as a switch, to be quite honest because I- Kenrya: Can you tell our listeners who don't know? Feminista: Oh, sure. A switch is somebody who can function as a submissive type and can also function as a dominant type. For me, it fell along gender lines. Like, I would be dominant with women and I would be submissive with men. And I really had to critique that. Like, as a feminist, I could come up theoretically with all the ways in which it was fine to be a submissive and here's where ... You know, I've written about it, it's not an issue, and I don't have an issue with it, trust me, but what I had to do was really challenge myself and say, "Are you really submissive or do you just engage certain men this way?" Because when I would be out and about in the community I wouldn't be ... I wouldn't bow my head to any of them other dudes, like no, I'm not doing nothing you say, I ain't going to call you no sir, nothing. I was just like yo ... Then it took a partner being like, "You don't have a submissive bone in your body." We said that, it was during an argument. I was like, "Well, that's actually true," and I started having to deconstruct that. Then what I realized ... And this is something that I actually now do workshops and stuff about, is I had to reconcile enjoying being a bottom for more of the physical things, like I identify as a sadomasochist so I do enjoy receiving pain, but that didn't make me submissive. And that's challenging a lot of the norms and the standards that we have in our community. Like, we equate a bottom with a submissive. And it's like, no, I actually just like the way these things feel and I like having someone else kind of inflict that on me or what have you. There's certain scenarios where I like to be choked, does that mean I'm a submissive? No. It means I like being choked. If I want a man to pay for things, does that make me a submissive? No. It means I like having men pay for shit. So I had to challenge a lot of what I already believed, and I was like no, you know what, there's part of me that with a particular partner I may curl up like a little girl and do whatever, but that is not my standard or my general way of being. I am actually quite dominant and I would limit it only to women but then I realized, no, I can be dominant with men too and not just in the bed. I found that outside of the bed is when I really got the enjoyment of dominating men. And so I allowed myself to evolve over the years and fully embrace the fact that I identify as a Dom who happens to be a sadomasochist. Kenrya: Wow. Feminista: Yeah. So after 21 years, that's where I am right now. Erica: So, just to dig a little deeper into that piece, did you deal with a ... I mean, when you thought for so long, I am this type of person, and then slowly come to realize no, that isn't who I am anymore, or who I ever was, how did you ... what was your thinking, what was your thoughts behind it? Did you feel like you were having some sort of crisis or ... I don't want to say crisis but how did you handle that? Feminista: Honestly, I think my biggest concern, because I am so well known, because I'm well known in the community and also out, it's like how will people receive this? Like, will they think that I was a fraud or they think I was whatever, and that's why I'm very delicate about how I explain this process and for those who are maybe newer to this lifestyle or newer to kink, letting people know you have permission to change. Like, you may identify one way now and then a few months from now you're like you know what, that doesn't really work for me, and it's okay. Don't let anyone pigeon hole you. So for me, I think that was probably the biggest concern because people look up to me, and then I wrote this book but then I realized when I started writing the sequel, I started writing the sequel three and a half years ago, believe it or not, and I wanted my primary character to be a Dom, a woman Dom. And I said, "I'm going to explore this." And I actually think through writing that I was like, you know you're writing yourself, right? And I'm like, but how am I writing myself? So it wasn't crisis, it was more like just let the spirit move you- Kenrya: Get yourself that space, yeah. Feminista: Get yourself that space, go with what feels good and what feels right, and I had fallen back from the community a bit, I was in a rather tumultuous relationship, and when I ended that I said, you know what? I need to reconnect with my people but I'm going to do it in the most authentic way. So people who had known me in my previous form, they accepted and they have embraced it because again, I've always identified as a switch. So there's always been that there, it's just now I fully embrace it and you'll see more of that with me. Kenrya: That's awesome. Feminista: But if you're the right person then you might bring that other part out a little bit, you never know. I'm just open to whatever feels good. Are we fucking right? Is it good? Who cares! Kenrya: That actually makes me think more broadly just about your career in general, from addressing street harassments, writing erotica to speaking at colleges and advocating women's health, I feel like you do a really good job of being your whole self in public and reflecting all of those pieces of yourself in your work. I'm wondering what the biggest challenges that you face in making space for all the things that you are and all the things that you do. Feminista: Honestly I think the biggest challenge has been the sex part, because that's how I came on the scene, right? That's how people knew me, from my early, early days, back 2010, 2011, and I really was trying to make this mark as a sex positive Black feminist. And I did. And that's what a lot of people came to know me for. And then I was like, but I do have all these other things that are really important to me too, and since now I have this platform let me start talking about these things too, and I started bringing more of my daily life as a social worker, as an activist online. I was like, well, I also do this stuff too people, and realizing that social media specifically could be a valuable tool to help me in my day-to-day life. So I was like, I got to bring all of this. And I fell back a bit from the sex stuff as much because I was having my own personal kind of revolution. There's a lot of things ... Not a lot, but there are some things that I wrote or said about six, seven years ago that I wouldn't agree with right now when it comes to feminism and sex and things like that. I talk about, in the book a bit, "Reclaiming Our Space," how I felt like it was my job to get more men to approve of feminism or to support it and I felt like sex would be the way to reach them. And it was very effective, I'm telling you, to this day I have just as many male fans and supporters as I have women. And in many things, the men support more than women. So it worked. But then I was like why am I doing that? Why do I care about their feelings like that? Like either you're down with feminism, either you believe that we are equal or you don't. I shouldn't have to sugar coat things, I shouldn't have to spoon-feed it to you, I shouldn't have to make it appealing. And so part of why I fell back from the sex stuff was because I was like I don't want that to be the only reason you believe that women are valuable. But I didn't fall back completely, it was just kind of like ... but the more public I became, things like that, I was just kind of like, this is risky. It is risky because now I'm out and about and sometimes when you talk about sex people feel entitled to you, you know what I mean? So that was a big thing and anybody listening, I feel like I've never explained this before, so you guys are the first to hear this but I started becoming concerned about my own safety because if I would look at my DMs, if I would look at the emails, all the unsolicited dick pics, all the things, I was just like, this is not what I want for me. And here I am posting where I'm going to be in these different spaces, the last thing I need is somebody who is infatuated with me or has been fantasizing about me to show up and we have a problem. So, that's another reason and one of the major reasons why I fell back from that. But then in the last couple of years I was like, "yeah, man, I'll shoot you." I'm going to do me, and this is important to me. When we think about things like what's happening with abortion right now, all of that is related to sex and sexuality. So I feel like ... Especially because I retired from social work last year, I said you know what? This is the arena I need to get back into. I need to get back into talking about sex and sex positivity. I need to get back into talking about kink and BDSM, I need to get back into talking about sexual liberation because it is so relevant to what is going on right now in our country and across the world and I feel like I have a strong enough voice for that. So I've been doing more of that lately and it's been good, it's been feeling good. So I think it all connects. When you are a queer Black feminist woman, it's hard to divest any part of who you are. Kenrya: Right. That's one of the things we talk about on this show, it's never just sex, right? Everything is sex and, race and, all of these things are interconnected. Feminista: Yes. Kenrya: You can't leave any of them behind because they literally are you. Feminista: It's sex and race, sex and gender, sex and class, sex and orientation, sex and religion, all of it is so intertwined, we can't divest. Here's the thing, if we're talking about liberation, like as a theory or a practice, we have to talk about bodily liberation. If your bodies are still in these kinds of theoretical chains, one of the biggest ones being related to sex, we're not getting any other type of liberation. You know what I'm saying? So, I feel like I have a strong enough voice in this particular space, especially with SESTA and FOSTA stuff happening, like nah man. I think that renewed my vigors, too, like when they started cracking down, when they started cracking down and like you can't put nipples on Instagram and everything got to be family friendly and all the stuff like that, the porn folks in porn and sex workers are getting locked up and in trouble and all kind of ... I was like nah, we got to do something about this. Erica: Got to come back out. Feminista: Got to come back out. Erica: So you talked about how your sexual self evolved over the past 20 plus years. As a mom and mentor, what do you think is the most important thing you want to instill in young Black people that are still trying to figure out their sexual selves and what that looks like? Feminista: You know, it's funny because I feel the real work starts with their parents and I feel like we need to really get to young people, as young as five years old, maybe even four to really kind of educate them about sex and sexuality. My ex-husband was an adolescent health educator and he developed age-appropriate stuff. They were talking to kindergartners about this kind of stuff and it was working, it was making sense. We have to get in early because a lot of times parents will pass on their own misguided notions about things and then we've got a whole other generation that's messed up. But I want young people to know that freedom, like personal freedom is about being able to enthusiastically say yes and having your no be respected. I think that that's a fundamental lesson that, as a parent, I have worked on with my son. Let me tell you something, I tell parents because I do some parenting writing too, I've told parents, "Listen, when your child comes and asks you for a cookie and you say no, and he's like, 'Please, please, please,' and you're like 'No,' and then they're like, 'Oh, I hate you,' and they start screaming and then you give them the cookie, you just taught them about coercion. You've just taught them that all they have to do is push a little harder and they'll get what they want." A lot of parents are just like, "Wow, I hadn't thought about that." Yeah, that's where it starts, don't even have to talk about sex. You just have to talk about boundaries, autonomy, and respect for other people. Young people have to know that they can explore things and feel free to, while at the same time understanding that it's important to talk to an adult who can give you context. That was an issue with my kid when he first discovered porn, right? He was like seven. I was like, so this is a no. But here's why, here's why. It's like Mommy does not think that this is appropriate for you to look at right now. Not that porn is bad- Kenrya: Not this is dirty, not that you're bad for watching, yeah. Feminista: I just don't think that this is appropriate for you to watch right now. Then it happened again a few years later and I was a little more stern, I said, "We talked about this. I do not want you watching this and getting your ideas about sex from this. If you want to talk about sex, talk to me and Daddy, we'll give you some more information." And I think he understood that. I mean, he's 12 now, like I got my first vibrator when I was 14, look I'm not going to hold my kid to some ridiculous standard, but we've raised him to know that if he has any questions he can come to us. Feminista: We've also raised him very open. I've never once been like, "Is there a girl you like?" I've always asked, "Is there someone you like? Do you have a crush on anyone?" So a couple of weeks ago we were walking and he said, "Mom, you know, I've just got to tell you something." I was like, "What?" He was like, "I think I know that I'm straight." I was like, "Damn." I was like, "Well what does that mean to you?" He's like, "I like girls." And I was like okay, well that's fine. But he's like, "Not that being gay is bad, I just don't like boys." And it was a conversation. I didn't have to pry or anything. Then he tells me that he likes this Puerto Rican girl and a white girl, and then I was like, "Okay, listen." Kenrya: Let's have a conversation. Feminista: "Let's have a conversation right here." I wasn't mad about anything else, I was just like ... I was like ... But do you know what it is? All his closest friends are Black girls. And the way he explains it is he's like, I don't know what's going on with these guys' heads, but girls are just smarter, and I prefer to have them as friends. Kenrya: Where is the lie? Feminista: So I was like, I feel you bro, like I get it. So I think that's something for him. I don't know if the girls that he likes being not Black kind of helps him juxtapose things, I don't know. But he does have love for Black girls and always has, so I'm not like mad or anything. So, yeah, we talk about it, I talk about it, we talk about it all the time, I bring it up, I let him know, "You can talk to me about anything," his sister, I had talked about this publicly, his older sister had a baby as a teenager and she was only 14, and she's 16 now, and so talking to him about that, like what does that mean? Like your "Sister was having sex and she got pregnant and she had a baby very young." He's like, "I ain't doing that." And I was like okay, all right. But it's important to have those conversations. Kenrya: Yeah. And to have them early. Awesome. Feminista: Have them early. Kenrya: So let's talk a bit about Push the Button. Feminista: Yes, let's talk. Kenrya: So we were definitely in from the opening line, "I want to see you." I'm wondering where the ... I mean so obviously we talked a bit about how the idea of it, the Dom/sub relationship at the core of it came from where you were at that part of your life, but where did the inspiration for this particular story come from? Feminista: So the book is almost five years old, and I am blessed to say I get my little Amazon royalties every month, people are still buying it, I'm very happy about that. It came out around the time that 50 Shades of Gray had come out, and that garbage really infuriated me. It infuriated me. Kenrya: So awful. Feminista: It was terrible, it was poorly written, it was not about BDSM, it was about abuse, and in the community we were all just what the fuck is this? And I think for me I have this theory, and a lot of people may not agree, but I feel like if you're a good writer you can write anything. I said to myself, you know what, I can do better than this and I can represent for our community and I can represent for Black people in our community because so much of BDSM erotica is just so white. So I said I'll write a short story. My Aries brain, I can go for a short story, anything beyond that ... Kenrya: Yes, Aries. Feminista: Yes. I'll be like, all right man, you've got 2000 words, there you go. So I wrote a blog and that was supposed to be it, so chapter one was supposed to be it, and then people were reading it and I got ... the biggest question I got was, "So what happens next?" I was like, "There is no next." I was like, "That's it, what are you talking about?" I just wanted to prove that a story about BDSM with black people could be written better than that 50 Shades crap. But popular demand, the fans were clamoring and so I started releasing a new chapter every holiday. So it got to the point where people would hit me up, they'd be like, "Yo, July 4th is two weeks, we getting another chapter? Hey, it's Easter, are we getting a chapter, because Easter's coming up. It's National Hotdog Day. Asian Pacific Month, what are we getting here?" It was really funny, but I would, and it held me accountable, I got to thank the fans because Aries in and out, we are over stuff really quick but the fans held me accountable and I just kept writing and developing these characters and developing this story until I got to all but the last chapter and by then my following had almost tripled and I took it off the blog. I said I'm going to make this a book. Why not, right? And I waited a year, intentionally, to build it up and then by then more than half of my followers had never heard of Push the Button. They'd never seen, they went to my blog, it wasn't there, they'd never heard of it. So when I added the final chapter and released it as a book, the old fans were just like, "Yes, this is it! We love it, "Oh my god, I can't believe you did this, what is going on?" It was really great to see because what was happening was with every chapter I started having people download it so I could track it and I was there, I would have like 2,800, 3,000 downloads in the first [inaudible]. Erica: Wow. Kenrya: Wow. Feminista: Oh dropping it. So I knew there was a fan base there, and I was like, okay, this is going to do numbers. So when I created it, originally it was going to be just an ebook, but I said no, I made a paperback. The version that's out now that people can buy is actually the fourth version, I had to do a lot of editing. I had never done anything like this before, I had never self-published and everything like that. Kenrya: That's impressive. Feminista: Thank you. So I went back and I did a lot of editing, I actually changed some sentences and fixed the syntax, a lot of spelling and grammar things and stuff like that, but I cleaned it up. So what you have now is the fourth version and people just loved it. I was being asked to come places to talk about it, to speak about it, and that really helped launched my speaking career. First I was just kind of in kink spaces, but I was recording myself and putting it on YouTube or online and more people were like, "Oh, can you come talk about this? Can you come talk about ..." And it grew from there. The best thing was I was at Weekend Reunion, and for people that don't know what Weekend Reunion is, it was an annual gathering of people of color in the lifestyle and they asked me to come and sell the book there and I had an elder in the community come up and she was just like, "Thank you so much for this, I've never seen us represented this way. Really appreciate it." That meant a lot to me because as they say, representation matters. Right? You want to see yourself in media, whether it's literature or film, TV, and so I felt like I'd done something special for the community and it went from there. This book has sold thousands and thousands and thousands of copies around the world and it's been a blessing and it's great and I love it and I'm halfway through the sequel. Erica: So, do you have any tips or resources for our listeners that want to explore kink? I think that often we tend ... If you're not familiar, you tend to think that kink is that white people shit but somebody chokes you out during sex and you're like, "Can I have some more?" Feminista: Yeah. That's the thing that I guess gets me all the time because people of color, we are very much obviously involved in this. We have huge communities across the world, especially in the United States, we have gatherings, we have all kind of conferences, I'm actually speaking at a conference called the Journey Con this August in Atlanta. We are there, but I think there's also that part of us that likes being underground a bit, and likes being in the margins because it still feels freer. The more mainstream something becomes, the more prying eyes you have and peering eyes, and so when the 50 Shades thing came, all the white mommy bloggers were just like, "Oh my god, I want to be spanked." And I was like, "You don't want me to spank you, child. I will send you right back to Mayberry and you'll never think about this again." You know? So there was an explosion of our community around that, that was trickled off a bit. I would say folks could go to fetlife.com, F-E-T-L-I-F-E.com, FetLife is like Facebook for kinksters, you can create a profile, you can talk about what you're looking for, tell a little bit about yourself, what you're into, but there's also an events page so you can find events that are happening near you, everything from workshops to demonstrations to munches, what we call munches, and a munch is when you get together with other people in the lifestyle but you're not doing anything kinky, you're just having dinner or lunch or drinks or something, just to get to know people. You can go to conferences, you can go to play parties, they list parties at the dungeons. For people that don't know what a dungeon is, it's where you go and there's all kinds of apparatuses around and people are engaging in their kink. FetLife I think is a really valuable resource, it can be a mess because there's always going to be some white dude who's going to come be like, "I just want you to sit on my face, I worship the Black Queen" Kenrya: My face is all screwed up right now. Feminista: Yeah, no, it should be, because it's gross, and I'll be like, not saying that having a white man ... But whatever, it's just a lot sometimes. Erica: It's not your thing. Feminista: Right. You get brothers whose default picture is a picture of their dick, and it's like, I don't need that. Kenrya: Because dicks are abundant and low in value. Feminista: They are so abundant and short. So they have an events page but then you also have groups, so you can check out the groups, there's a lot of message boards. Really just kind of learning. The other thing I would recommend for people is to go to workshops. I know in Philadelphia, for example, we have a number of groups and parts of the community where there's always a rope demo going on, there's always a flogging demo, there's always some kind of conversation about what it means to be a person of color in kink. There's always something going on that's either free or low charge that you can just go, and you don't have to participate, you can just sit in the back and listen because I think that the education is really so important, learning from people that have been doing that. And I would say going to munches, like I said, meeting people that are near you, you're a mess but meeting people that are near you. Kenrya: No, she keeps laughing because ... So she calls my daughter, who is her goddaughter, Munch. Feminista: Oh God. Thats awkward. Kenrya: And she's also a child. So every time you say it, she over there giggling because it makes her think. Erica: But the funny thing is I am Auntie Munch, so like I call her ... Because she was a munchie baby, so I called her Munch and I'm Auntie Munch, and I'm like, now I feel like that title is so fitting for me. However, I need to reevaluate it for her. But yeah. I am drunk Auntie Munch, okay. Feminista: That's kind of funny. But yes, those are things, that's what we call them, and I think also there are people that maintain ... Facebook has a ton of kink groups, I'm in a couple of them in which people are discussing things all the time. It's one of those things like if you want to know, you need to go seek it out, you need to be proactive about it. Then some people are not big on being involved in community stuff and that's fine, too. We are in the information age, you can go to Google, anything that you want to learn about related to kink, maybe you and your partner want to just kind of sit down, watch some videos, there's rope tying demos on YouTube, you can find stuff on YouTube, you can find blogs and read and experiment yourselves. Erica: So we are rapping up but I do have one question, one silly question for you. So, I want to ask you a would you rather question. So, would you rather be a sub to someone with no short-term memory or a sub to someone who can only speak in whispers. Feminista: Oh my god. Wait. Erica: Have you watched- Feminista: So no short-term memory or whispers Erica: So kind of like Awkward Black Girl that got in the office that can only... Feminista: Oh my god. Erica: Like, "Get over here, bitch. Would you like me to speak up?" Feminista: Oh wow. You know what. Erica: Or he repeats everything. Feminista: If I can them a portable microphone or like a bullhorn or something. Erica: It'd just come out like a really loud whisper like, "HEY. LIE DOWN BITCH." Feminista: I think actually I'd probably choose the no short-term memory. Kenrya: Really? Feminista: Because no short-term memory means they have long-term memory so if they don't remember it Monday at 4:55, they'll remember it Tuesday, so I'll be all right. Erica: But if she or he says, "Go sit down, go get on your knees in front of the couch," and then goes and uses the bathroom and comes back he's like, "But why you on your knees?" Feminista: I'd be like, "I don't know." Erica: "I was looking for something on the floor." Feminista: That's the first thing I thought of, is like, well I wouldn't have to do shit. I wouldn't have to do much of anything. But the if I was truly being a submissive type and really kind of connected with that I would say, "Well, you told me to be on the floor and so here I am." So we'd just kind of ... I feel like I would try a lot throughout the day. "You told me to ..." It'd be like, no, because like can you imagine being in bed, right, and they're getting out the paddle and the flogger and stuff and they put it on the bed and then they go to the bathroom- Erica: Who's this for? Feminista: And they come back and they be like, why are you laying there with all that stuff on the bed? When you said you were going to use it. And then they go and they use the paddle and they step away and they come back and use the paddle again, it's like, "You just used that! Like ow, man!" Oh my God. I would choose that, though, that'd be fun. I don't think I could deal with the whispering because eventually it would probably ... It would take me ... I would respect you but it'd take me about 20 minutes to be like, "Can you just shut the fuck up?" Erica: That'd be it. Feminista: Don't make me laugh, I just started going back to the gym, my abs hurt. I got so fat, listen, but I started back at the gym now, so when I laugh now that shit hurt. Kenrya: It's just letting you know that the work is working. You're putting in ... Feminista: But you know what, I'm going to put this in this group, I'm going to put that same question in this group that I'm in because I want to see the answers. Erica: You've got to tell us what they say. Feminista: I will, will. Oh my god. I'm going to be like, so I was recording a podcast about kink and they asked me ... That's hilarious. All right. Kenrya: This is awesome. So, we're so glad that you were here. See? I didn't even know we was going to laugh so much. This is dope. Feminista: Thank you very much. Kenrya: So your newest book is "Reclaiming Our Space: How Black Feminists Are Changing the World from the Tweets to the Streets." Where can people find that book and you and all the rest of your work? Feminista: So the book is everywhere, you can go to a bookstore, library, online, anywhere, it's in a bunch of countries. People haven't had much issue getting it. A lot of times they've gone into stores and it's been sold out, so you can always request it. Just request it and they'll order it for you. I think it's ... I would actually tell people to order it at the library because libraries are the biggest book buyers so if you go and request it ... One woman told me there was a 30 person wait at her library for the book- Kenrya: Because they probably had like two copies. Feminista: Yeah. You should probably order more copies. So you can do that. I am on Twitter, @feministajones, Facebook is Feminista Jones Official, I am on Instagram, @feministajones, and my website is feministajones.com. If you want to know what's going on with me, you can go to my events page, feministajones.com/events and you'll be able to see what's coming up. Yeah. Kenrya: Awesome. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us before you go on your break. Feminista: Thank you. I appreciate you all having me. I always do. I love doing this stuff, it's fun. Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Erica and Kenrya and edited by B'Lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. Every five star review posted on Apple Podcast between now and July 31st, 2019, will be entered into a raffle to win a copy of one of books we read on the show. We're giving away five books, just post your review and email a screenshot to theturnonpodcast@gmail.com to enter. And please subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, follow us on Twitter, @theturnonpod, and Instagram, @theturnonpodcast, and find links to books, transcripts, guest info, and other fun stuff at theturnonpodcast.com. Holla.
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Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES In Episode 2 of The Turn On, we read an excerpt from “Push the Button” by Feminsta Jones. Then we talk about our own experiences with dominant and submissive roles in relationships. Resources:
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information. TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Come here, get off. Erica: Hey, y'all, welcome to this week's episode of The Turn On. Today, we're reading Push the Button, by Feminista Jones, which was published in 2014. Sit back, relax, get your wine, get your weed, get all your stuff, your accoutrements, and enjoy. Kenrya: Push the Button, by Feminista Jones. "I want to see you." Though the words can be taken as a request or a simple expression of his wants, she knew that they were heavier than that. Five typed words, one command, sent via text message, and she had but a few minutes to comply completely. It did not matter that it was 4:07 AM, or that she had been deeply asleep for at least five hours. She knew that keeping her phone under her pillow was necessary, as he could summon her at any moment, and she had to be available, ready, and willing to do whatever was asked of her. She groggily rolled off of the side of her bed, stumbling over her shoes, then regaining her composure and made her way to the bathroom. She splashed water on her face, removing remnants of her nightly facial mask, brushed her teeth, removed her scarf, and fluffed her hair a bit. Staring briefly at her reflection, she thought, "This will have to do." She turned on her computer and while it booted up, she went to the kitchen to grab a bottle of water. She glanced at the clock, 4:14 AM, not bad. She hurried to the couch and signed onto Skype. Within 30 seconds, her screen flashed with an incoming call. "Good morning, beautiful girl." She smiled at this greeting and put her headphones in. For some reason, listening to his voice through her earbuds made her feel closer to him. She sat up straight, stared at his chest, and noticed that he wore no shirt. She could see the chest hairs she had fallen asleep against many times before. She felt familiar warmth slowly begin to spread across her skin. "You may speak." She continued to look at his chest, having not yet received permission to make eye contact. "Good morning, Sir. It is an honor to be at your service. May I ask how you are?" "You may." "How are you, Sir? How was your day? Is there anything I can do for you at this time?" "I'm well. My day was long, rather exhausting. Look up." She raised her eyes without hesitation, meeting his sleepy but focused gaze. "I'm being pulled in so many ways at work. I know I can handle it, but some days, some days it's just too much. I must have clocked 15 hours today." "Oh, Sir, I'm so sorry to hear that. I know you've been dealing with a lot at work lately, and I hate that it's overwhelming you this way. How can I help you in this moment?" "It would help if you followed my instructions and appeared on screen prepared," he began, a tinge of frustration in his voice. "I've mentioned this before, so, you're not unaware. Have you forgotten? Lost your rule book? What?" She felt the chills of disappointment prickle down her spine. In her sleepy disorientation, she'd forgotten to fully remove her clothing and attach her collar. The last time, she'd gone to sleep with the collar on because he demanded she do so. This time, it was beside her bed, in the drawer of her nightstand. "Get it." She scurried to her bedroom and withdrew collar, she hastily fastened it to her neck and ran back to her computer. "I don't remember telling you to put it on. Take it off. Now. You think you deserve to wear my collar right now? Nevermind, don't answer that. I don't want to hear a word." The bite of the last word forced her eyes to cast downward, shamed. Embarrassed, she removed the collar and held it in her hands, her thumbs nervously rubbed over the ridges in the leather. She received the purple collar on her birthday, nine months prior. After a year of training in service, she received her most coveted prize, his collar. She'd known better than to ask for it, but several times during any given week, she would catch herself fingering her neck longingly. When out with her friends in the life, she would often feel tinges of jealously while looking at their beautiful collars. She would only hope that her submission pleased him sufficiently and that he would, one day, bestow upon her his symbol of ownership. When he took her out for her birthday, during a walk in the park after dinner, he surprised her with the collar. He sat her down on the bench, stood behind her, and clasped it around her neck, whispering only "You're mine." It was one of the best nights of her life, and she cherished his gift and his appreciation of her. She never wanted to disappoint him, but there were times, like this, when she faltered and made simple mistakes. "I'm sorry I," she began. "Don't be sorry. Do what I ask of you and prepare yourself accordingly when I summon you. It's rather simple, actually. Do as you're told. Look up." She looked up and met his eyes, this time seeing a smile. She didn't immediately understand where the smile came from, but she felt comforted, and that was enough for her for the moment. "Take off your clothes." This was not a new request, and she knew very well what he wanted when he commanded it. He enjoyed her slow movements, never breaking eye contact, focused, deliberate, dancing on the bridge between coy sensuality and gratuitous sexuality. She was wearing an ivory satin push-up bra and white boy shorts, so she didn't have much to remove. She reached behind her back and gingerly unhooked the latches of her bra. She then delicately hooked the index finger of her right hand under the left strap and guided it down her shoulder. She did the same for the other side, never breaking eye contact. She watched him shift in his seat a few times, which she recognized as the onset of his arousal. She was pleasing him. "Show me." She fully removed the bra and cupped her breast. They weren't overly large, but not small either. They were full C cup and he deemed them perfect for his taste. When he made this simple command, she knew that he meant that she was to present them to him, playfully and sensually. So, she began massaging her breasts and rolling the nipples in between her thumbs and index fingers. "Nice." She watched him lean back in his chair and slowly place his hand atop his groin area. She could see slight twitches in his boxer briefs, but dare not let her enjoyment of his new predicament show on her face because he could read her so well. She lifted her left breast toward her mouth, preparing to suck the nipple when he stopped her. "Where's your toy? Go get it. Now." She rushed to her bedroom again, opened the same drawer, and pulled out her lilac G spot vibrator. She hurried back to her computer and looked at the screen, she saw that he removed his boxer briefs and was holding himself, slowly stroking, back and forth, up and down. She knew what he needed. She sat back on her couch and laid back, spreading her legs. "Push the button." She turned on the vibrator and it began to buzz in her hands. She looked up at him, meeting his eyes again. "Sir, may I play with myself?" "Yes. Do what I need you to do, what you need to do." Angling herself for a better view, she began to move the vibrator along the outer lines of her vagina. It slid in easily as she was naturally well-lubricated. With her left hand, she spread the lips wider, and with her right hand, she massaged herself with the lilac color device. With every moment, she slipped deeper into the moment and allowed herself more enjoyment of it. At least he'd given her permission to do so this time. He told her to do what she needed to do and she proceeded to do just that. She broke eye contact with him when her own eyes began to roll back into her head. Her hips slowly began to gyrate to the rhythm her hand and toy had started. After a few minutes, and at least three low groans from him, she inserted the toy inside. "Yes, baby girl, that's it. Show me. Good girl. Make my pussy come for me. Now." Hearing the urgency in his voice, she knew he was not far off from his own release, and she knew he needed her to give him the visual stimulation he needed to get over and release completely. Making him cum was one of her greatest pleasures. To be able to serve him in such a way catered to his pleasure, she felt so lucky and honored to be the one he chose and to be the source of his pleasure. She widened her legs and pushed the toy deeper until it hit her spot. She knew it would be any second now, she moaned once, and then again, and finally a low guttural raw sound came from her throat as she felt the wave of an intense orgasm take over her body. She felt her body jerk as her back arched, and just then, her body released its juices and she squirted them all over her keyboard, some of it hitting the screen. She knew better than to be embarrassed by this though because he loved every drop that came from her. She opened her eyes just in time to see him making his final feverish strokes as he erupted into a handful of tissues he had. She hated to see his cum go to such waste, but what could she do? "Did I please you, sir?" "Oh, yes. Yes, baby girl, you were fantastic. You always are." She beamed with pride, despite her temporary weariness. "Good girl." "Thank you, sir. I'm glad to be of service to you." She lowered her head again, gathered her belongings; she'd clean it up tomorrow, she was too tired now. "Nicole." She looked up, having heard her birth name. She saw his hand extended, open palm, toward the camera. "Yes, David?" "I love you. So much." "And I adore you, my love." "You are so fucking beautiful. I wish you could have come on this trip with me." "I know, honey." "I'll be home Friday." "I can't wait." "You may put your collar on, sleep well with it until then." "Okay, I will." She blew him a kiss and signed out of Skype, she patted back to her bed and stretched her limbs a bit to work out the kinks from their awkward positioning during their session. She laid down, heard the notification ring on her phone, and she glanced at it and saw a text from him, "You're mine." She typed the only response he needed and expected, "Always." ... So, you just heard us reading Feminista Jones' Push the Button. Erica: So, the part of the story that we read was the opening scene in the story. This is a much longer chapter book, and I highly encourage everyone to actually read the entire book. Kenrya: Yeah, because it's not at all what you think it's going to be. The story is really interesting. Erica: It definitely turns into something else, and word on the street is there will be a Part 2 soon. So, I'm very excited to see what the Part 2 will look like, considering the conversation we had with the author- Kenrya: Which you'll hear next week. Erica: And knowing her developments. So, I actually really liked this because it drew me in immediately, with the "I want to see you" part. Kenrya: I was like, "Who wants to see who? Why?" Erica: Yeah, like, "What's about to happen?" And there's something about a woman willingly submitting to someone, where it's kind of like ... it's kind of like how if you find out people are paying a whole lot for a particular something, you're like, "Ooh, that must be good, if they're paying all that kind of money." So, like, he must actually have some good dick if she willing to go through this shit. Kenrya: There must be something. Erica: If she willing to do all this submissive shit, wake up in the middle of the night and stuff. I mean maybe not necessarily for just dick because, as we say, dick is abundant and low in value. Kenrya: And low in value. Erica: Yeah, it was the ... The story definitely drew me in from the beginning, and I liked it. It's interesting seeing that kind of power play- Kenrya: Yeah, that dynamic. Erica: Act out. We'll kind of get into it, but I am ... well, maybe we won't get into it, I'll just open it up now. In relationships, I am ... Well, in life, I'm a very dominant person, and so I want to be a submissive person in relationships. However- Kenrya: I'm sorry. Erica: You're laughing? Kenrya: Bitch. Okay. Erica: No, I want to be a submissive- Kenrya: In relationships, or in sex? Erica: Sex and relationships. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: I want to. The problem is I don't quite know if the DNA makeup of me- Kenrya: Allows for that shit. Erica: Allows for that to happen. See, now we're about to get into some whole therapy-type shit, but I feel like- Kenrya: It's never just sex, right? Erica: Right. So, I feel like in relationships, I desire to be submissive, and so I find myself throwing my submission to men that aren't worthy of said submission. Kenrya: Yeah, he can't- Erica: And then that's how you get off of that. Kenrya: You can't follow where a nigga can't actually lead. Erica: Exactly. Exactly. And so now, it's like how do you play that line? So, to me, this story reads like a fantasy because it's like, wow- Kenrya: Yeah, you can stress this nigga this much? Erica: She's got a dominant that's really doing the shit a dominant is supposed to do. So, I actually really like it because, like I said, I crave to be a submissive in a relationship. However- Kenrya: What is it about that that attracts you? Like, why do you want to be submissive in a relationship? Erica: Because I want to turn my brain off, I don't want to have to think about shit. But, again, I find myself being a dominant person because I know I can trust myself- Kenrya: Yeah, you're competent. Erica: I know I can depend on myself. Kenrya: Right. Erica: I know that if shit go left, Erica can make it happen. And it'd be really great to hand that over to someone. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: And I think this also has a lot to do with the whole gender roles and growing up and having in my mind ideal gender roles. But, yeah, that would be really great, and so, to me, this is like a fantasy because it's like, wow, this shit is working well. But it's like, how does this really play out in real life? Kenrya: Right. I mean, it's interesting to me, I like the story, and, on some levels, I like the idea of being submissive- Erica: No, you're just a sadist, you enjoy- Kenrya: I enjoy pain. Erica: Yeah, you enjoy ... So, I've been reading a lot about submission and all of that, so in this book I read, they essentially broke it down into three buckets. The first bucket being a bottom, and bottoming, for the purposes of the book, and I'm probably fucking it up- Kenrya: Fucking it up, and y'all will let us know. Erica: Please correct us. But bottoming is enjoying receiving pain in sexual situations only. So it's like I can bottom, but when this scene is over, "Nigga go make some pancakes." Kenrya: "Get the fuck up off me." Right. Erica: And then, there is the role of the submissive, who is maybe not necessarily a bottom, but takes direction from their dom in the relationship. And so it's like make sure my drink is fixed when I get home, or my coffee's prepared this particular way- Kenrya: Did you see how big my eyes just got? Erica: You should see Kenrya's face right now. Kenrya: Wooh, nigga. Erica: To me, that's a turn-on. Kenrya: Make sure what? I'm not your mama. Erica: But, see, yeah, to me, that's a turn-on. And then, there's a slave, which is like, "Nigga, you ain't got no choice in this, you're going to do what I tell you when I tell you, sex, whatever." Kenrya: Gotcha. Erica: And, also, in the book, it was, and I'll reference it once I remember what it was, but in the book, it was also important to note that the power in being a submissive is that you are giving your power to this person- Kenrya: Right, you're trusting them and you're giving it to them, right, yeah. Erica: It's a gift. And the power in that is that you can take that shit back any time. So, I think you're a bottom, and not a submissive, at all. Kenrya: Yeah, that makes more sense to me. Erica: Like, "Fix your face." Kenrya: Well, but it's interesting because I don't want it to sound like I don't do for my partners because that's obviously not the case. But, I have dealt with codependency for so long, where the way that that looked was that I would put myself out, I would do harm to myself in order to help other people, particularly men, who didn't fucking deserve it, like as we were talking about trying to follow behind niggas that don't know how to lead, and putting myself in, sometimes, fucking in like real-ass peril, in the case of abuse and things like that because I was trying to meet the needs of someone else and subjugating my own needs. And so I've come through that, right, with the help of lots of therapy, shout out to therapy. Erica: Shout out. Kenrya: And I ain't going back. So, now, it's this really interesting balance of, you know, when we're just out here living our lives in a relationship, of making sure that there is a balance, and I even like to think of it as power, but a balance of doing for each other so that it doesn't feel like one person is always doing for the other because I'm partner right now with someone who's as sweet as I am and who has often found himself in that situation where he was the person who was doing everything for everyone, and so it's been kind of cool to see how we navigate that, as both of us being that type of person. Kenrya: And it almost is like a competition to see who can do the sweetest thing for each other, but we do it, don't roll your eyes at me, bitch, but we do it in the context of we're not hurting ourselves to do it, and it feels ... it's healthy, it's the first time I've been in a healthy, you know what I mean, situation like that. But when it comes to sex, I'm like- Erica: "It's okay to hurt a little bit." Kenrya: Yes, do that, I literally will say, "Yeah, you need to suck that like you're trying to hurt me," and he does it, and that is what works for me. And so it's interesting because I'm still telling him what to do in that instance, but, also, it's because I enjoy the pain of it, so it's a ... I don't quite know what that- Erica: Well, I think, one, as you guys continue to "partner"- Kenrya: You hate that word. Erica: I know. As you continue to partner, you will learn each other, and so it'll be a little more just ... shit will happen. Kenrya: Well, stuff has happened, but he like to do some new stuff, he gotta get some direction. Erica: But, two, I think it's just important about knowing yourself, your partner knowing you. And I mean and shit, if this is the person you're with, they should understand that you have ... Ideally, for me, I will be in a situation with a dominant that understands that I have a history of codependency, and will care and do just as much to look out for that as I will. And, also- Kenrya: Right. And that's the one thing you can trust to lead you. Erica: Yeah. And, also, I think that it's important to remember that your service should not be to the detriment of who you are, you know? And I think that's ... If there's anything that I learned in this whole codependency journey- Erica: Is that codependency is putting yourself at harm to help- Kenrya: Somebody else. Erica: Somebody else. And I think that- Kenrya: And so often Black women do that, it's what we're taught to do that as little girls. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: We're socialized to put everybody else's needs before our own, and that's why I always hate that strong Black woman shit because I'm like, I was literally just having a conversation about this, like we are taught that we should not feel pain, or at least if we feel it, we shouldn't express it, we for damn sure shouldn't tell people that we're hurting, and at least to us, not ever feeling like we can really be vulnerable, whether it's when we're having sex, or it's when we're talking to our friends, or when we're trying to be in a relationship, an intimate relationship, with somebody. Erica: And if you can't express that whole range of emotions, like if I can't express to my partner deep pain and deep sorrow, I think it's also difficult for you to express extreme joy and extreme happiness, you know? I feel like you should be able to express all of those emotions. Kenrya: Well, and feel them all, right? Because oftentimes it's like you can't even feel that shit. Like, my kid is ... well, first of all, she's a Gemini, like you, so take that how y'all want to. But she's like- Erica: That's the Gemini theme song. Kenrya: Dramatic as hell. But, so, she'll be having a reaction that, to me, as an Aries, who is like, "Okay, girl," is overblown. But I tell her all the time, the first thing I always say is, "It's okay to feel that. You can sit here and you can have those feelings, feel all of that emotion, and then when you're ready, we can talk about it." Like, I never tell her that it's wrong to feel a way because for so long I think I was told that in ways both explicit and implicit. Erica: Yeah. I was with this guy, and going through my shit, going through my emotions, and he just sat down, looked me dead in the eye, was like, "You are so fucking emotional." He was like, "I'm not used to it, but I'm going to deal with it, and I appreciate you for it,"- Kenrya: Okay, I guess? Erica: And I was just like, "This is sexy." See, I found it sexy because, again, it's just like- Kenrya: I guess, relatively, like have you experienced men who are like, "Oh, fuck, I can't, this is too much"? Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: I mean, people, not even men because, again, I am an emotional being, I will be very excited about going at 9:00 AM, and then by 7:00, I'm like, "You know what, I'd rather stay at home." Kenrya: Yeah, we know, the people know. Erica: Anyway, bitch. Again, put your eyes back in your mouth. But nonetheless ... So, it's really nice to have someone ... because I know it's a little off-putting to people, when you're not used to such extremes in emotion. Kenrya: Y'all feel things so deeply. Erica: Exactly. And so for somebody to be like, "Yo, this shit is fucking wild, but I'm here for the ride, and I appreciate it," it was just like- Kenrya: That's pretty cool. Erica: "Aww." Kenrya: And it wasn't, "Well, I'll fuck with you anyway," you know what I mean? Erica: No, it was just like- Kenrya: It was like, "Okay, this is what it is, and I'm down." Erica: "This is what it is, I'm learning it, all right." Kenrya: "Got to adjust, but it's cool." Erica: Exactly. Kenrya: Okay, I dig that. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: So, you like to be submissive when you're having sex. I was going to say "in the bedroom," but who has sex in the bedroom? Erica: In the room. Kenrya: Yes, in the room. In the room where it happens. But, do you like to be submissive outside the room? Erica: Yeah, I do, to an extent. Kenrya: Can a nigga text you at 4:14 and say, "I want to see you"? Erica: If those are the established rules, yes. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: But, see, the thing is, I want to ... So, I was a kid, growing up, that I clearly remember being at a birthday party in somebody's basement, you know, had a little ghetto birthday party in somebody's basement. Kenrya: Where they just put all the kids in the basement? Erica: And I clearly remember looking around for emergency exits- Kenrya: Wow. Erica: Like, if some shit go down, how we getting out of here? And that's how I am in the context of ... That's how I see myself being in the context of a submissive relationship. Haven't gotten there, but, you know, like I am perfectly fine submitting because, one, I require a lot, so it's not like there's this, "Oh, I submit, and"- Kenrya: Right, it means that you're taking care of me on a certain level. Erica: Exactly. And so I'm kind of like on ... For me, it's kind of like, "Okay, I'll submit, but the minute this shit start feeling weird, or like you ain't got it, bro, I'm out, deuces." Or like, "No, nigga, let me tell you what you going to do." So, yeah, that's where I am with that. Like, it would definitely have to be established rules that we both agree upon, that kind of thing, but, yeah, I would be fine with it. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: Yeah, I think I would be okay with it. But, again, you got to hold shit down, I got to be taken care of, in order ... because I feel like, also, submitting is me taking care of you. Kenrya: Right, like how she was talking about she had to do what he needed and what she needed. Erica: Yeah. Like, I am a very detail-oriented person. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: I have no problems with ... In previous positions, I've served in roles where I was a number two to someone; the number one took care of the big picture, the vision, whereas I was responsible for executing, and those were the most satisfying jobs that I had. Kenrya: Yeah, because you get shit done, you got shit you can tick off your to-do list. Erica: Exactly. So, you come back from a meeting and say, "This is the direction we're going in, I want 10 widgets. As long as I got 10 widgets, make that shit happen." That's how I see an ideal submissive relationship for me; you look at the big picture, you see where we going, setting that, and then look to me to take care of the details, but, again, I have to be comfortable in you setting the major goal. So, what about you? I mean it's clear that you're not really willing to ... I don't want to say willing to submit. Talk me through this. Kenrya: I'm sitting here thinking about it. I mean- Erica: Because, also, knowing your background, I feel like there is this reaction to "I'm so not going to be this, I'm going to completely run from it," and maybe I'm being a little too extreme, so talk me through your thoughts of how you feel on that. Kenrya: I mean, I think some of my trepidation goes back to something you said earlier, which is that you are following somebody who is not really leading you anywhere. So, you know, I was married to a nigga who I should not have been married to, who wasn't leading us no fucking where, to be quite honest- Erica: To the BET awards. Kenrya: Bitch. Erica: Everybody's a rapper. Kenrya: Everybody's a rapper. And I ... So, I've always described myself as not necessarily an A-type, but I am, I forget what it's called ... like, I step up when I'm required to, I do not need to run the show, I don't need to be out front, I like to be behind the scenes like you, just kind of getting shit done. And in relationships, typically what happen is that I ... Kenrya: You know what, a good analogy: if there's a class project, and we all have shit that we have to get done, if a natural leader emerges and handles the shit, I'm cool to just do my part and turn it in and keep it moving; but if nobody steps up, I will step into the role and I would do a great job at it, that's really how I treat relationships. Kenrya: And so, in that marriage, and a lot of other relationships I've been in, I've been kind of forced to step in the role because the man who I was with was not able to do it, or not willing to do it, or whatever. In the case of my ex, what I found out over the course of years was that he really did just want somebody to fucking take care of him. His mother had taken care of him for years, his sister had taken care of him for years- Erica: And that's the thing, it's difficult being comfortable with the person you're submitting to because submission ... I see submitting to a guy, not taking care of a nigga, but, no, you have to be a strong person because you got both of us riding on your back, it's not just you. Kenrya: And that was the thing, we were all riding on my back. And then it was like- Erica: And then mad because the nigga riding on your back. Kenrya: Exactly. You know, you got an attitude because I'm the one that's making the money, you got an attitude because I'm the one that's working and can't fuck around and do nothing with you and listen to you rap all the goddamn time. So, eventually, it got to the point where it just wasn't really sexy for me. I got to a point where I didn't really have a lot of respect for him, to be quite honest. Erica: That's the worst. Kenrya: Right. And it wasn't even about gender roles, I don't think. I think it was more like, "Okay, cool, you're not the one that makes the money, bet. Could you do something around the fucking house? Could you take the kid to do something so that I can get this work done and then we can all go out and have dinner together? Yeah, I mean could you finish painting the fucking dining room that I ended up having to get up on the ladder and do that shit myself?" Kenrya: And that was my thing, you know, you ain't got to be the one taking out the trash and, you know, doing all of that, but you need to do something, and then not be on my case about it. And so it got to the point where even if I had wanted to be submissive, there was no one to really submit to. I couldn't trust him to lead me any fucking where. And it spilled over into the bedroom, or wherever else we was going to have sex because I didn't really ... I wasn't wet for him no more. Kenrya: And so I think my fear is slipping back into a situation with anyone where I am doing all of the things, and that if I attempt to be submissive, which is where I try to ... you know, I was making plates, I was doing all of that shit and, again, I don't have any problem with doing that, and I do that with my current partner, but it's because he is worthy of it. Erica: Worthy? Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: That is so ... Yeah. Kenrya: And so while I don't think of it necessarily as being submissive in this relationship, it really does feel like a equal partnering, which is pretty fucking dope. And in the bedroom, we just nasty, I can't even- Erica: We just nasty. Kenrya: I can't even label it, we do the stuff that he likes to do, we do the stuff that I like to do, there's no complaining, there is just a willingness to do all of the shit, and that just works for me, you know, without a label, it just works really well for me. Erica: Cool. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: So, in the story, middle of the night, wake up, "Let me see you play with yourself," do you do ...? Kenrya: I would do it. Erica: Computer love. Kenrya: I have. Erica: Okay. Kenrya: I have had a partner who was once ... he was away for some kind of training, this is the last time I can remember doing it, he was away for some kind of training, he was gone for like seven or eight weeks or some shit, and we was both struggling. So, we literally did this, but it was an app on my phone, and so I just propped the phone up, I had gotten a little thing, like a little suction cup with a ... like, how you had the tripod, where you can attach it, set that up, pulled out the toys, he put his headphones in, and I gave him a show. I got to cum, he got to enjoy it, fantastic, good times. Erica: I might have to look for that particular suction cup- Kenrya: Oh, it's in the Amazon cart, or in the order. So, we share an Amazon cart. Erica: Yeah, we are those Black people, we share Amazon, Netflix, we're a shared economy. Kenrya: Hulu. We share everything. Erica: We were Ubering before, well, not like that, but, you know- Kenrya: Yeah, no, fuck Uber. Erica: We were Ubering before Uber was Uber. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Living in the shared economy. Kenrya: The share economy, yes. Erica: Okay, yeah. Kenrya: You? Erica: Yeah, I am ... I do it all. Kenrya: Wait, bitch, I just sent, you're going to be so proud of me, I don't think I told you this- Erica: You send nudes? Kenrya: I sent my first nudes. Erica: Oh my gosh, I have like literally like fucking vaults of that shit. Like, vaults of that shit. Kenrya: Oh my God. Erica: Yeah, yeah. I do lots of ... Yeah, my friend now is not here, and so we do lots of that shit: videos, not Skype, FaceTime, sending pictures, we have this great little app, it's a- Kenrya: That photo vault thing? Erica: Oh, yeah, we do that. Kenrya: Yeah, I have that. Erica: Well, I have that. Well, you don't have anything to put in it. Kenrya: Well, no, no, see, that's sending- Erica: You take pictures while you're in the act, too? Kenrya: I'm about to say, I've made videos, and then- Erica: Oh, yeah, we do lots of- Kenrya: Save that on my phone, and then we can rewatch it later, we like to watch ourselves. Erica: I think I'm own Jenna Jameson. Kenrya: Yeah, yeah. But as far as sending things- Erica: Yeah, you don't send it. Kenrya: I've never felt comfortable ... because, you know, I had pictures stolen from me before- Erica: I know. Kenrya: So I was kind of skittish about. Erica: See, that's the thing, I have so much shit out there- Kenrya: That you're like, "Fuck it." Erica: That I'm just like, "Fuck it." And then the other thing is everybody got them, and I got a good body, so, I mean I've got a little gut, but fuck it- Kenrya: Girl, who don't? Erica: Somebody like it. Niggas from the South like it. Kenrya: I hate you. Erica: Where was I going with ... Kenrya: You said that you have no problems with it, and I'm saying that I am very proud of myself when I first did it. Erica: We also have this ... it's a Bluetooth vibrator. Kenrya: Oh, that he can control from his phone? Erica: Yeah. But the thing is, it's a little- Kenrya: Is it any ... Erica: It's a little difficult because I have to have the app open, he has to have the app open, so- Kenrya: Then how do you see each other? Or I guess then you got to set up your laptop or your iPad or something. Erica: Yes. But within the app, you can chat- Kenrya: Oh, okay. Erica: Because we do that, too, I mean like ... I guess that ... You know what, that was my first intro to erotica. Kenrya: What? Sexting? Erica: Self-written erotica. Kenrya: Bitch, that ain't the same. Erica: I am an author. Thankfully, for our listeners, you will not hear any of my self-written erotica because it's trash. Kenrya: At least you know yourself. Erica: Oh, no, yeah, girl, we ... wooh, yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative). Kenrya: Yo, she's like reminiscing, she done bit her lip, like the white man's overbite, the shit they do when they think they getting it. Erica: No, yeah, so, I definitely do some computer love. I have not been summoned at 4:00 in the morning to do computer love, I don't think. But, yeah. Kenrya: Yeah, no, I mean my sleep is precious, but I would do that if ... I mean, that's hot, I would do it. Erica: Especially if your boo is out of town. Kenrya: Yeah. See, my boo lives literally three minutes away. Erica: So jelly. Kenrya: I know. It's the best. Erica: That's better than in-house supply because- Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: That nigga can go home and you can be in your own clean house. Kenrya: This is true. Erica: When you want to snuggle- Kenrya: Although, I like him there, but, yes, it is- Erica: It's nice, but, if you like him there- Kenrya: We still- Erica: Because you have the ability to have your own space. Kenrya: Yes, at this point. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Yeah, we're still early enough that it's nice, though it is very convenient, we can meet for lunch. Erica: I know, every time, I'm like, "I'm going to lunch," I'm like mm-hmm (affirmative). I sent her text, "Are you still at "lunch"?" Kenrya: And I don't respond because I still be at lunch. Erica: At lunch. Lunch. Kenrya: It's fun times, yeah. Erica: Getting your lunch on. Okay, so, later in the story ... did you read the ...? Kenrya: Yeah, I read the whole thing. Erica: Okay, I'm sorry, yes, we read the whole story. So, later in the story, I found it interesting, we didn't really go over this in our story, but I found it interesting the openness that they had with their submission. Remember the scene where he's at his mom's house, and they were talking about ... well, first, that scene in the bathroom? Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Although short, hot. Kenrya: It was great. We considered doing that one, but it was too short. Erica: Yeah. But, just the whole- Kenrya: And it was in his mama house. Erica: Fucking in the bathroom. The trepidation she had about going to see his mom because she was like, "Oh, she thinks I'm a weak woman," and I was just like, "Oh." Kenrya: That was interesting, to think about what that dynamic looks like on the outside. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Because I never really ... you know, I'm very much like, "Fuck what y'all doing, this is what I'm doing," but that that was a factor in their relationship, for her to be thinking about that, I did think that was interesting. Erica: Yeah, because, to me ... Yeah, I'm definitely, to an extent, a "Fuck what y'all are doing" kind of gal. But, you still want the nigga mama to like you, you know? Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: And so, I found that very interesting, and would like to maybe hear from some people, if you're in a Dom/sub relationship, how do you navigate vanilla scenes? Kenrya: That's interesting. Yeah, do you tone that shit down when you're around ... because he really didn't, he was just like, "Stop asking her about that. We not doing this," it was very- Erica: Because I feel like to an extent, it's just relation ... like, again, all relationships are the relationships, so, you know, there is a level of service to one another, and I don't think anything would look too crazy out-of-line. But, you get to a point where you're like, "Go sit down," and you go scurry in the corner. Kenrya: Right. And his mama like, "The fuck? Where'd this ...?" Erica: Lord, when I tell you my Granny's eyes would be like, "Girl,"- Kenrya: Listen- Erica: "If you don't chill ..." so, yeah. Kenrya: That is interesting. Another thing that happened, and I was thinking about it when you were talking earlier about how you have attempted to have this type of relationship with some men and found that they weren't the ones, was that in the story, she talks about, and there's some flashbacks with her previous dom, and it's great because ... I think Feminista does a great job of showing that there are lots of different ways that this can play out, and showing what it can look like when you're with somebody who is- Erica: Abusive. Kenrya: Abusive and is not respectful of you and doesn't accept that gift that you're giving them, in a healthy way. Erica: They abuse it. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: And that's the scary part that you want to ... that's, like, the dark side of it all, you know, it's like there are probably a lot of predators looking around for some little wide-eyed girl talking about, "I want a Dom," it's like, "Yeah, okay, and then I'll just use this as a ploy to abuse you," you know? So, that's scary. Kenrya: Yeah, that is scary. Erica: And from what I've seen and read from some women, their entrance into these kinds of relationships have been with really shitty guys, you know, I think it's finding what works ... you know, like kissing a bunch of frogs before you find your Dom prince. And, that is why, me being who I am, I'm reading lots of books, and doing my research, and how this is playing with my codependency, that kind of thing, because I don't want to go into it and end up in a really abusive, fucked-up situation. Kenrya: But, I mean, I think the great thing is that you have tools, and you have people. As our therapist, we have the same therapist, and she always says, she's like, "You're not the person that you were before, you've got all of these things, this knowledge, these tools, and you are also in a place where you're not doing that strong Black woman stereotype where you are able to be vulnerable with people who have earned that, and that you can go to those people when you need help if you find yourself in a situation with someone who has not earned it. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: I think that helps to take the fear out of the new shit, you know? Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay, so, question for you, kink question for you, what's your favorite ... what's your instant ... I'm sorry, I'm trying to snap my fingers, my nails are too long. What's your instant pain, like that's like a boop, it's on and popping? Kenrya: I like a ton of nipple pressure. So, I use nipple clamps. Like, with a heavy chain, a chain that's cold and it's heavy up against your body. Erica: Yeah, I just got into that, very recently, and was like, "Whoa." Kenrya: It's like, for me ... and what's crazy ... So, my right nipple is a little more sensitive than the left, like I can feel it more, not even that it's more sensitive, but like that will get me there, and it's literally, it's like a direct line from my right nipple to my pussy, it's insane. Like, you could push me over if you do it right, it's fucking crazy. Yeah, like a lot of ... In the past, niggas be like, "Are you sure? I feel like I've got to be hurting," I'm like, "No, I'm good, I'm strong, keep it moving." Erica: "No, no, do what I told ... Do what I fucking said." Kenrya: Exactly, "Don't ask me fucking questions. Just do it like you're trying to hurt me, and it'll be great." Erica: All righty. Kenrya: Yeah, what about you? Erica: I like spankings. Like, throw me over your lap and go to town. Kenrya: With a hand, with a paddle, with a crop? Erica: I feel like guys like paddles more because they feel like, "I'm not hurting you," but I appreciate a good hand. Kenrya: I like a good hand. I have a paddle and a crop. Erica: Leave me bruised, and I am excited. Kenrya: See, I don't think I'm ever bruised. I can't see my ass, but I- Erica: See, I like a bruise, also, because it's a later reminder of like, "Wooh, child, that was wild." Kenrya: Yeah. Remember I told you I didn't quite have time to have sex this morning even though that was the plan, but we did have a whole spanking session that was very nice, and it was just hands. Erica: See, yeah. Kenrya: But I never do the lay across your ... that makes me think of, I don't know- Erica: Daddy-child type of- Kenrya: Yeah, and that's too much for me. I can't. But it was literally just he was on the couch, I was standing in front of him, I was talking about going to make breakfast, and then it was just lots of play. Erica: Okay. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: And that's the thing- Kenrya: It pops up whenever. Erica: Sex is more than just sticking it in and out, it's- Kenrya: Exactly. Like, we'll do that later, but this was just nice and fun. Erica: Some sensual, fun play. Or not so sensual, just some smacking that ass. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: But, yeah- Kenrya: And my ass is like new, so I'm enjoying it. Erica: You're like, "Wait, it's still wiggling? Even after the hand is gone?" Kenrya: Right. Listeners, "new" in that it has just gotten bigger, not in that I have paid for it, which I ain't got no problems with that either. Erica: I know, I'm definitely trying to get the stomach taken out. Kenrya: Are you really? Erica: I would love to. And we went out of town this past weekend, and so I was in the city of fake bodies, and you see really bad jobs, and then you see really good ones, and it's just like, "Wow." In my mind, the only reason that I felt like these were jobs and not like, "I worked really hard for this," was because nothing about you says that- Erica: "I'm in the gym all the time." Kenrya: Exactly. Erica: Like, if you have really ... and if I'm wrong, I'm so sorry, but, A, no way you in the gym every day with that fly ass pressed blowout and big, fluffy, healthy, natural curls, and then that flat-ass stomach; like, no, bitch, in order to get a stomach like that, you were sweating like a motherfucker in the gym. Kenrya: Yeah, it's a work stomach, not a "I'm just a super little skinny thing" stomach. Erica: Exactly. Kenrya: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Erica: So, yeah, I saw some bodies that I was like, "Hmm, that would be nice. That would be very interesting." Kenrya: Yeah, especially if somebody else would pay for it. Erica: I am also firmly in the "I appreciate the body that I have now, I'm not going to spend these days pissed about it or worrying about it or not appreciating because 10 years from now, I'm going to look on this body- Kenrya: You're going to look back and be like, "Bitch." Erica: And be like, "Damn." Kenrya: Bitch, I have never appreciated my body while I was in it. Like, I am just now finally being like, "Ooh, bitch." Erica: Exactly. Yes. Like, you don't know what you got 'til it's gone, and that's how- Kenrya: [crosstalk 00:48:29]. Erica: I was about my body, and so now I'm like, "You know what, this little tummy? Fuck it. Y'all going to get all this gut and all this motherfucking butt." Kenrya: Yeah. I like it. Erica: And, my swimsuits, I was looking like a Luke dancer, my shits are like super tiny- Kenrya: I haven't seen ... are they the ones you got from that one site that we were looking at? Erica: Oh, I got another one, I'll show you, it's out there, but it's like tiny and it is so cute and I absolutely love it, and, yeah, you see a little FUPA, but you know what, fuck it, that's that gush that niggas like. Kenrya: Exactly. Erica: Beyoncé got it, we got it, too. Kenrya: Right? And, also, I like a big guy, and so ... I spend my time worrying about my body, and I'm just like, "You know what, for fucking what? They ain't worried about that shit." Erica: Exactly. And I appreciate a little muffin. So, I know you got to appreciate my little muffins. Kenrya: Yes, absolutely. Erica: But, if we have any sponsors for this coolsculpt or lipo, we'd still be willing to take them- Kenrya: You'll be accepting. Erica: I'll take sponsorships, and then I'll be on this episode talking about "This was so great, I tried it, and it was fantastic." Kenrya: She will. You will, bitch. That'd be a Instagram takeover. Erica: Yeah, definitely. Kenrya: It's okay. Erica: I definitely feel like one of those weird companies ... So, we roll with a big crew of amazingly smart and gorgeous bad bitches, I'd want a wig company to ... Kenrya: Oh, bitch, I got three wigs in my closet. I'm looking at yours up here. Erica: That's my Prince wig. I want a wig company to sponsor us so that we can take these fly photo shoots in like lime-green wigs, listening to Megan Thee Stallion talking about "Simon says put your hands on your hips, hey," with wigs and stuff. Kenrya: Wait, how tall do you have to be to be a stallion? I'm guessing I'm firmly a hottie. Erica: You're firmly a hottie, I think you have to be like 5'7" and above. Kenrya: Oh, God, I'm nowhere near that. Are you? How tall are you? Erica: I think I'm 5' ... I say I'm 5'6", but to obtain stallion status, I would be willing to measure myself because I am a fucking stallion. Kenrya: You are a stallion, that's not a fucking game. Erica: Yeah, I fucking love ... I love that girl. Kenrya: Yay. Erica: All righty. So, are we it? Is that it? Kenrya: This is it, yeah. Erica: Okay. Kenrya: Thank you so much for joining us. Erica: Thanks for joining us as talk we about dicks and shit again. Kenrya: It's what we do, this is what we do. So, y'all will hear from us next week, hopefully you'll be back, right? You will be back- Erica: You'll be back. Kenrya: Because you love us. Already. Erica: You'll be back because you love us. Kenrya: Already. We'll be back with another really dope story, and an interview- Erica: An interview. Kenrya: We're actually going to talk with Feminista Jones, who wrote Push the Button, she'll be here with us next week, that'll be dope. Until then, we are Kenrya and Erica, two hoes making it clap. Erica: Two hoes making it clap. Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Erica and Kenrya, and edited B'Lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. Every five star review that you post on Apple Podcast between now and July 31st, 2019, will be entered into a raffle to win a copy of one of the books that we read on the show. We need your help, and we're giving away five books. You just need to post your review, and then email a screenshot of it to TheTurnOnPodcast@gmail.com to enter. And please take a minute to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app, follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram at TheTurnOnPodcast, and find links to books, transcripts, guest info, and other dope shit at TheTurnOnPodcast.com. Peace.
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Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES In Episode 1.5 of The Turn On, we interview Leone Ross, author of "Come Let Us Sing Anyway." We talk inspiration, first times and the world leader we're sure has never, ever been present while a woman was having an orgasm. Resources:
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information. TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Come here. Get off. Kenrya: Today we're excited to have Leone Ross, the brilliant mind behind Drag. Leone is a Jamaican-British fiction writer, editor, and academic, who writes literary fiction, magic realism, horror, and erotica. Leone is a two time novelist whose short stories have been published widely. Leone's novel, Orange Laughter, was named one of the most influential British novels of the last 25 years. Yo, that's crazy. Leone: That's ridiculous. Whatever. But thank you! Kenrya: And your, the 2017 short story collection Come Let Us Sing Anyway, which is where Drag appears, has been described as remarkable, searingly empathetic, outrageously funny, and unforgettable. Yo, that's crazy. A former journalist, Leone is currently a senior lecturer in creative writing at Roehampton University in London, commissioning editor for Fincham Press, and Senior Fellow of the UK Higher Education Academy. Whew, yes. Leone. Leone: That makes me sound like I'm not going to swear, but it's not true. Kenrya: Oh, well good, you in the right place. Erica: We love cursing academics, so, yes. Kenrya: You got it! So first, we just want to ask, what are your preferred pronouns? Leone: She and her, that's just fine. Kenrya: Great, okay. Awesome. Always want to make sure we get it right. Kenrya: So, we just heard your whole bio, I just read it. It's fantastic. But can you tell us in one sentence what it is that you do? Leone: I suppose I pay attention to small spaces, and try to recreate them. That's what comes to mind, yeah. I've been doing that since I was a little girl, paying attention to small spaces. Kenrya: That's what's up. So, where are you from originally? I said earlier you're Jamaican-British- Leone: Okay, yeah, so you're going to hear a lot of weird accent things going on, and this very irritating thing that I do that when I'm in the company of people who have a different accent from me, I start creeping into it, which is just really embarrassing, so wait for that one. Leone: But the background is that I was born in England, and when I was six, my mother, who is Jamaican, took me back to Jamaica, and I stayed there until I was about 21, and I did my first degree there, and then I returned to England. So all of my formative years were spent in Jamaica, and if I'm among other Jamaicans, I sound much more Jamaican than I sound now. All Jamaicans tease me that when I lose my temper or have sex, I sound Jamaican, and if I'm speaking formally, I sound British. British people tell me I don't sound British at all, and Americans, Jamaicans say I also sound... no, British people say I sound American, and Americans tell me I don't sound American at all, so who the fuck... Leone: But that's, my basic background is a lot of mix. I suppose, at its heart, I feel Jamaican more than anything else, but I think that's a formative year thing. You know, wherever you grew up, wherever you went to high school, I think as well, makes a difference. So yeah, that's kind of Kenrya: Love it. Kenrya: So, Leone, where are you based now? Leone: I now live in London, where I have lived for 20... many years. Which is presently imploding and totally screwing up, and Brexit is driving us all crazy, and the Conservative government is driving us possibly just as crazy as Trump is making you guys feel. Kenrya: I was about to say, we might know a little something about that. Leone: Yeah, so yeah, exactly, I don't want to assume, but I assume. I assume that, considering you guys like sex, that you don't like Trump, so- Erica: Not at all. Kenrya: Yes Erica: Not at all. Kenrya: It's the best assumption anybody's made all day. Erica: Spot on. So- Leone: Basically that man has never given a woman an orgasm, and that's his problem. Kenrya: I mean, he's probably had them, but he's never given one. Erica: Oh my god, no. Leone: Oh, no, definitely I mean, it takes two minutes to have an orgasm, especially if you're a man, but especially if you're giving it to yourself. But to give a woman an orgasm Erica: That would require- Leone: To share in a woman's orgasm requires... many things. Erica: Yeah, a level of consciousness. Leone: None of which is like... yes exactly. Erica: Not at all, not at all. Leone: I don't believe I'm spending the first five minutes cursing the President of the United States. Kenrya: I mean, I feel like it's probably how we should open all spaces, so it's fine Erica: It's like an invocation of fuck this shit. Leone: The best invocation of all. Erica: So, Leone, did you always know that you wanted to be a writer? What did you want to be when you grow up? Leone: Yeah, always. I mean, there was a period in which I wanted to be a vet, a veterinary surgeon, because I really love animals, but that was to accompany the writing. I think I always knew, and I was one of those children who, you'd take me to the beach and I'd sit down and be reading a book, and people would be like, "Look at the waves," I'd be like, "But there are waves in the book, so I don't know why you're bugging me about waves in reality." Kenrya: Right, and I can picture how they look however I want, right? Leone: Yes, exactly right, I can make them green, or blue, or purple, or orange, so leave me alone. Having said that, I really like the water and I like the beach. Leone: But yeah, I was that kind of kid. So I think I always knew that one of the best ways to spend time was to read a book. Then when I began to start writing, I always think I had an impulse to... I wanted to make people feel. I think that was my initial impulse. When I began to work out that I could write things down on a piece of paper and make people laugh, or get upset, or be delighted, or moved... I'm aware that other people did that, because obviously when I was a little kid I just had ambitions to do that, I thought that was a kind of magic. I still do. Like, you know when you write something on page 49 on section 3, paragraph 2, that's intended to make your audience laugh, and then you read it out loud, and wherever you go, and wherever you are in the world, they laugh in that moment... I love that shit. It's like yes! That's what I wanted to do. Laugh at that moment, get aroused at this moment, cry at this moment, yes. Maybe I was just a control freak when I was a kid, but that's what I wanted. Kenrya: I mean, who isn't. Erica: Leone, I feel like you are describing my best friend right now. Leone: Tell me, tell me, was it like that for you as well? Kenrya: Yeah, I have control issues, but I think more than that, I mean, this sounds sad, but books have always like been just a really great friend. I mean, obviously not as great of a friend as Erica, but- Erica: I was about to say, I'm a bad bitch, but okay. Kenrya: Yes, you are a bad bitch, and the books could never compare. But books have been my constant companion. I started reading really young and I was never without one, and now that we have tech where it's just in my phone, I mean it's everything. I spend so much time writing books, and reading books, and they are just a comfort to me. So, yes. Leone: Yeah, there's no question, and all of the research shows just that actually nothing does things to the brain like reading does. Nothing still. No kind of art form. Kenrya: That's right. Leone: No kind of orgasmic experience, even, does exactly what is done to the brain when we read. So, yes. I mean, obviously, we're all fans. Kenrya: That's what's up. Kenrya: So, as we were saying up in your bio, you write a lot more than erotica, and in fact, Come Let Us Sing Anyway has stories in lots of different genres. I'm wondering what pushes you to dip into so many different areas with your writing? Leone: Probably because I read so many different areas. I'm not, and have never been the kind of novelist or reader that dismissed any particular genre. As long as it was well-written within its own context I was fine. I've always wanted to be an accessible human being, not to mention a writer. It wouldn't trouble me if someone read my work and thought, "This is challenging. This makes me think. I'm not quite sure what this means, I need to go check." That's all fine, but if I can't access your basic emotions quite swiftly, I think that I personally haven't succeeded. Genre writing is some of the best writing there is. Leone: So, I remember once making some weird reference, this is years ago, to an editor that I had. I mentioned something about the word obsidian, and he said some highfalutin academic thing in response to the word. I said, "No I meant the Obsidian Order on Star Trek," and he's like, "what?" He's like, "But you're such and intelligent woman!" I thought, "What does that even mean? That you can't be an intelligent woman, and read Shakespeare, and pay attention to Star Trek?" I mean popular and high culture, whatever that means. Leone: So, I supposed that's all a way of saying that I'm interested in all ways of moving people. Complex literary fiction, I make an attempt at, and I hope that I can make a metaphor like the next person. I'm interested in complex ideas and features of language, in fact I love that. But I also want to be able to chill your bones. I want to be able to turn you on. I want to be able to surprise you. I want to make you laugh. So, if I manage to do all of those things, great. I wouldn't limit myself to any one genre in order to try to get that kind of emotional response. Kenrya: I'm wondering, I mean I love that you have never thought to limit yourself in that way, but I'm wondering, I guess as a writer as well, I write quote-unquote serious non-fiction. Did you ever struggle with the decision to add erotica to the mix? Does it- Leone: No. I mean, the erotic was always there. The irony is that a lot of people in Britain who, the few who know me, of that subset associate me of being the sex writer, which is really funny because it's the smallest amount of the genre I do. I mean as you can see in Come Let Us Sing Anywhere, there are only like three stories, I think, that have any kind of explicit sexual reference. But I remember trying to work this out at one point, laughing, of all people, with my grandmother, about it, who by the way, before she passed, read everything I ever wrote, including the explicit sexuality. Erica: Love that. Kenrya: We Stan a supportive granny. Erica: We love a supportive granny. Leone: I love her so much for that. It's so totally wonderful. I remember saying to her, "Maybe a little sex goes a long way." I've just become this kind of sex writer when that's not the whole story. I didn't have a problem with it, it just wasn't the whole story. So, she just looks at me, she said, "The thing with you is that not only do you write explicit sexuality, you've also injected your entire work with a sense of sexuality, with the sense of the body." She said, "You do that all the time in ways that I don't even think that you recognize." So she said, "I think people mistake that sense of sensuality and the body, they think sex. So you're not always talking about sex but you're being sexual a lot of the time." This, note, was my grandmother. And I'm like, "Yeah, I can go for that." She's like, "You have intellectual ideas about sex as well as sensory ideas about sex, and language based ideas about sex, and then the sex." So, she's like, "Because you see the world through many lenses but one of them is human sexuality, I think people then get the impression that you're writing more sex than you are," or something like that. That was her view, anyway, and I thought, "Okay. That'll do as a theory. That's fine." Kenrya: I like it. Erica: So, let's jump into Drag. I loved the story, absolutely loved it. I'm a reader, but not as much as Kenrya, so this was kind of my first foray into erotic fiction and- Leone: Oh, how wonderful so you were a virgin? Erica: Yeah, I was a virgin. Leone: I took your virginity, that's so cool. Erica: At 30...bleh, yeah, you took my virginity, and I loved the story, so where did your inspiration for the story come from? Leone: Thank you. Leone: I was thinking about this earlier because you also have to remember, I don't know if you've noticed, this is an old story. This is like 18 years old. Where the hell did it come from? I was trying to work it out earlier. It was something to do with... I do remember the first moment I thought about it. I was walking down street and I was, I think as you Americans say, feeling myself. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Leone: Felt quite cute that day, and felt very confident in my stride in that moment, and really began to work it, really began to think, "I like this. I like my body today. I like the vibes I'm giving out." Then I began to think just wandering down the street, the phrase, "I feel like a boy," came to me. Now this is not a matter of transsexuality or that complexity and gorgeousness. It was more to do with I'm taking on a stride that might be associated with masculinity because it is so confident, because it is so unquestioning, because it takes itself so much for granted. I remember thinking, "Let me play around with that idea, a woman who's feeling like a boy today." How might a woman who's feeling like a boy today want to be approached sexually? How might ideas, whether or not they're stereotypical or not, how might ideas of masculinity affect the way a man might approach her, sexually? Leone: Then I began to think, "Oh, I could make this into a story." So, I thought maybe what we can do is come up with an example of three experiences a woman has with one single man who returns to her three times in her entire life, and each one marks a period of development. Leone: So that was her first period of development. She's young, she's 18 when she meets him. She's walking down the street feeling like a boy, and they have an experience that has to do, hopefully, with ideas of gender and masculinity and femininity. She's young, so she's playing and she's really open to playing around with identity and taking chances. When he meets her the second time, it's different. When he meets her the third time, it's different again. So, that's maybe where the idea came from. That was the genesis. Leone: A lot of ideas, lot of stories come to me, both in moments and with sentences. Erica: Wow. Kenrya: I'm wondering, the genesis really came from you strutting, are there any ways more specifically that you relate to Josephine? Have you found yourself trying on different roles to figure out your place, whether it was sexually or otherwise? Leone: I think so, but I think my gift, just to backtrack slightly for context, my gift has been a really great sex education from both parents and extended family. It's not that my family doesn't, like any human family, have their own limitations or nervousness about human sexuality, but they certainly nurtured my kind of natural curiosity. It's a kind of family joke that I was so interested in sexuality so young and asked questions so young. Their gift to me was that they answered without any kind of shame, without any kind of guilt. Leone: I may have to say that again, my computer just did something annoying, sorry. Leone: Yeah, they answered my questions about sexuality when I was a kid without giving me any kind of shame, without giving me any kind of guilt. So that created a context in which I then, in the process of working out who I was sexually and what I wanted, which I believe, by the way, is a lifetime's job, just like writing, because things change all the time and grow. What I am really grateful for is whatever roles I've played like the protagonist in this story, or not, I haven't felt any shame about it. Pure, straight up curiosity and joy. Which is not to say we don't have issues, we wonder whether we're with the right person. We have certain feelings about our bodies, and so on. It's not that it's without pain or complexity. But sex, as a pure experience, to me, doesn't actually have anything to do with what the body looks like. It doesn't have anything to do with anything but its own gorgeous sense of energy. Do you know what I mean? Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Leone: It's just something unto itself, and an acceptance and love of sexual energy unto itself has allowed me to play with roles or likes, or dislikes, as they've come up in my life without feeling like I was bad, or nasty, or wrong. Which I love, and I notice a lot of women and men haven't had the same experiences. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Leone: I don't know if that makes any sense. Kenrya: No, it makes total sense. I think it's a gift that they gave you. Leone: They really did. Kenrya: So many of us are walking around out here broken in that regard, that we weren't given that space to be able to develop and to find the joy in ourselves, and in our bodies, and who we love, and the ways that we love. It manifests in so many awful ways. In hate, in- Leone: Yeah, and I mean I've also been blessed because I wouldn't... I mean one has to be careful when you talk about this, to be sensitive and to be compassionate, but I also have been lucky enough not to be the one in three or one in four women who will have some kind of sexual abuse of some type in their lives. So I'm really grateful for that privilege as well. It's not come to me and it could come to me any minute now, let's be real about the way that the world works. So that also hasn't come to compromise my kind of unfettered joy. Jesus, I sound like an academic. It feels good, okay. It feels good and I'm cool with it feeling good, and I'm cool with finding it. Leone: I'm quite sentimental about sex, actually. Sometimes people don't expect that of me. I remember once having a conversation, my girlfriend's going to kill me, but once having a conversation with a girlfriend of mine, who... You know that numbers question? Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Leone: What's your number? When you're in your twenties, what's your number? Now, I don't give a fuck about anybody's number. It doesn't make any difference to me. But she wanted to know my number so we sat down and we counted up numbers, and then when we compared numbers, she went, "You can't have such a low number," because she had a higher number than me, right. So, I was like, "Why?" She's like, "But it's you." I was like, "What does that even mean?" Leone: You're the sex one.But that doesn’t mean i’m fucking everybody. Kenrya: Right. Leone: Which means I'm working with what works for me. I said, "Why do you have to bring emotion to this number? Your number is just a number." So then she made me re-count. She was like, "Okay, you're bisexual, so now you have to count the women," cause we were counting men. I was like, "Okay." So I counted the women and I was still lower than her. She's like, "Okay, screw you, let's count non-penetrative sex." Erica: When did you brush past someone in the grocery store? Leone: The number went up again with the non-penetrative sex. Exactly. Kenrya: Shit, I don't even think I can remember all the non-penetrative sex. Leone: I know, truly, I couldn't remember. I was like, "This is getting ridiculous," right, this is just not necessary. Now having said that, in her defense, she was also joking. It became, of course, a laugh. But just that initial response from her, which was, "But I can't have a higher number than you," made me also think about the complexities of sexuality and how women are expected to behave when they're cool about sex. So therefore you're expected to sleep with lots of people. I mean, do what you want to do, that's my thing. Do you what you genuinely want to do and what feels good. Kenrya: That's what's up. So I have a question that, people ask me this question all the time and it feels like choosing a baby, but you can do it. Do you have a favorite line in Drag? Leone: Oh my god, you should've warned me of this before. Do I have a favorite line? I will start looking for the favorite line while we talk about the things that [inaudible 00:20:58]. Crap. Probably. I'm really tempted to just look at page 33 and just say, "A single crumb sits on his neat mustache," but that's only the page... Erica: Oof, that Kenrya: And I want to lick it off, yes Leone: I want to lick it off. Erica: You do such a great job of building that frenetic, like every single bit in me- Leone: Everybody likes that, yeah. Erica: -is about to lose it if I don't do this in that particular part of the story. That was... yeah. Leone: Yeah. For the listeners, what we're doing is we're referencing a scene in which the male protagonist comes and finds the female protagonist who's having a professional meeting, and whose client arrives, but he's masturbating her under the table. I love that. They're so, I don't know how they do it. I quite like "my hand is frothy." Frothy is a good word. Kenrya: Frothy is a good, nasty word. Erica: Yeah. Leone: Frothy is a good word. But I'll tell you what I really like as well. I know I'm choosing random lines and being irritating, and not obeying you, but the moment I like is when she starts coming and the client doesn't know what she's doing, and of course her lover does know what she's doing, and he's trying to cover it up, but he's also wanting to laugh, and the client's just shocked and thinks that she's having a fit. And the whole restaurant's just kind of erupting and thinking, "Oh my god, oh my god, the woman's having some kind of heart attack." Kenrya: Right. Leone: And she's just coming, and I love reading that to people because, whoever the audience is, they're in tears of laughter at this point Kenrya: Yeah. Leone: Because it's silly, apart from anything else, which is what I like. But it is supposed to turn you on, so I hope it turns you on. Kenrya: Oh, yeah. Erica: No, it's silly, and so... damn sexy. And I think so often, we forget that sex is supposed to be fun and enjoyable, and we have moments where we laugh. So that was a great choice. Kenrya: So I- Leone: I think that's one of the things that kind of made me the saddest when people have fed back to me about this particular story, which is that they say to me it's so joyful, and they're not used to that. And I think, "Really? I mean, how are you people fucking?" What? Why- Erica: You're doing this all wrong. Leone: I mean there are all kinds of ways to have sex, of course. There are all kinds of ways to have sex, loving, and intense, and dark, and beautiful, and all kinds of things. But joy, it seems to me, if laughter is too far away from the sexual space, I think you need to rethink who you're sleeping with. Kenrya: Listen, that is a whole word. So y'all about to learn something about me that is very personal. Leone: Go! Go, go, go. Kenrya: When I'm having sex with someone who I really care about, I laugh when I come. Erica: Whoa. Leone: That's so good. Kenrya: I do! It's the best. I'm having so much fun. And the first time they're always like, "What? Are you laughing?" And then they start laughing, and they get really excited that they made me so happy. Leone: Are you sleeping with men? Kenrya: Yeah. Leone: I'm just not assuming about anybody's sexuality. Okay, so you're sleeping with men, but sometimes men have to be coaxed into laughter, that it's okay, that we're not laughing at them. Kenrya: At them. Erica: Yes I've learned, I find that in my experiences, men take sex as a job, whereas women take sex as a journey. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Erica: Women, we just want to enjoy every bit of it, whereas men want to perform and- Kenrya: They're focusing on that task, yeah. Erica: Yeah they- Leone: I think it, isn't that what's expected of them? Erica: No, I'm sorry, you can go Leone. Leone: No, I was just saying that it makes sense, there must be a certain kind of masculinity, that's all. Erica: Yeah, and even when they... Leone: It's like I have to be good at this so I will now try to be good at it. Erica: Exactly. Leone: And I think, "You poor thing, you don't have to be good at it, you just have to be present, which will make it good." Kenrya: It's hard to be present when you're stuck in your head, thinking about, "Oh, does this feel good to her," all the time. Erica: Well, Leone, since this is our first episode, and I lost my reading erotic fiction virginity to you, we're going to be talking about first times. So do you have a first time story you'd like to share? And it can be anything, first time I tried yogurt, or first time I tried a woman, whatever. Leone: You don't want me to tell you about yogurt. I have to think of what I can tell you without my best friend cursing me tomorrow morning about it. First times... Actually okay, no. This will be a story that's a best friends story. Kenrya: Yay! Leone: And she will curse me because she says I have this wrong, but this is the way I remember it, whether it's wrong or not. I'm remembering the first time I met my best friend, who I have known since we were 10 years old, so that makes it 40 years this year that we've known each other. This is my memory, this is not hers, so it's fair for me to say before I say it, but she says I'm talking rubbish. This is my memory of us knowing each other. Leone: We'd been at school with each other for a while and we'd never spoken. And then both of our parents were late to pick us up one day. I was reading a book, I was reading a large book. But slipped inside the large book was some sex book. It wasn't porn but it was something about human sexuality, that I remember. And at one point it became evident to her that I wasn't reading the book that she thought I was reading, and so she realized I was reading this sex book. I mean, it could've been Shere Hite, it could've been some sort of report on how babies were born, I have no idea, but it was something sexual. Leone: So I remember us both having a giggle about this moment, because I was expecting her to be judgemental but she wasn't at all. And then I remember going into the bathroom, this is not sexual by the way, she's totally straight, but going to the bathroom maybe to wash our hands or whatever we were doing. We use the loo and whatever. And then when we came out, or maybe when we didn't come out, but at some point I said to her, "Tell me something, do you masturbate?" And she said, "Yeah." And I said, "That's cool." Erica: I'm like, "This is a 10 year old conversation?" Leone: And we're like 10 or 11, right? And on some level I thought, "This is my tribe." This is someone who is also so comfortable with sexuality that there's no condemnation, there's no judgment, and that was the start of our connection. Again, I'm gonna say this, my best friend would say that this is a total lie but that's how I remember it. And I remember thinking that I could trust her because this was the first time in my memory I'd said to another human being, "Do you masturbate?" And they'd come back with, "Yes." And that was just understood and Erica: Wow, that's so beautiful. Kenrya: Wow. Leone: Apparently Kenrya: I wonder what her version is. Leone: You can never tell with these bloody novelists. Leone: No, she just says it never happened, and I'm a liar. I say she has a bad memory. Kenrya: I mean, you are a writer, but I feel like you didn't make that up whole cloth. Leone: I promise, I usually know the things I make up, even if I'm trying to pass them off. I promise you. The best I can do is say to me it is the truth of what happened. Kenrya: Yes, I like it. Leone: Put it this way, at some point she and I had a conversation about masturbation. That I know. Erica: That's so great. Leone: And she didn't condemn me for it. Kenrya: Well, I think we're done. This was so fun. Leone: Okay. Wow. Kenrya: Right? Leone: So that's how do it, huh? So how did this work for you guys with the first time? Are you disappointed? Are you, you know, did you have an orgasm? Is the afterglow good for you? Erica: The afterglow is great. I think you were a really great first guest, because you get our brand of- Erica: You get us. I feel like I found my tribe in you, in a writer. Leone: Seriously, this is the tribe. We could meet each other in Ohio tomorrow, and just go to dinner and be absolutely cool. We are sisters. Erica: Yeah, so this was a great interview. Kenrya: Yeah it's true. Also, I'm from Ohio, so that's the best place to meet. Leone: I just said Ohio because I think I read that one of you was from Ohio, so I just slid it in there. Erica: We're two Midwestern girls that have a love for a good casserole and... and sex. Kenrya: ...and sex. Leone: We didn't talk about food, oh my gosh, we did talk for ages. Kenrya: No, this is fantastic. I mean, we really love this story. I've had Brown Sugar, where this originally appeared on my bookshelf, for years. It's literally moved with me maybe six times. Leone: Wow. Kenrya: And this has consistently been my favorite story. So for us- Leone: Wow, that is a huge compliment. Thank you. Kenrya: It is just fantastic from beginning to end, and I love- Leone: Indulge me in one last moment, why is it that you like it? What is it that you like? Kenrya: Sure. So much... cause I am the one, I use erotica to get off, and so much of it honestly becomes super formulaic. You know what's going to happen next. You know that he's going to talk about her pert nipples. You know that she's going to talk about his member. And it's none of that. Leone: Oh, Jesus. That's why I don't like, you know what, I'm going to tell you a secret, I don't like erotica. Erica: Girl... Kenrya: Yeah. Leone: Because so much of it is so badly written. Erica: We're learning that. Kenrya: Yeah. That is honestly the biggest challenge we've encountered so far, is that, I think Erica, you literally just said it- Leone: Promoting good erotica. Kenrya: Yeah, she was like, "We overestimated how much great erotica there was out there." Erica: Because we found such good erotica in the beginning, and so we're like, "Oh! The world is just teeming with this." And... Leone: No. It's teeming with members and bosoms heaving, and really bad orgasms that are not natural at all and... Oh my god. A lot of it's really, really shit. Kenrya: Yes, and Drag is not that. Leone: Thank you. Kenrya: And I love that it's not bound by... like the fact that she feels like a boy. I think that there are so many folks who have so many hangups and so many biases and all of these things, that that's not something that would even come out in their writing. But for me, I just immediately connected with the role play of it all, and of her trying on all these different things, and that it wasn't restricted by gender identity, and all of the crap that we put on ourselves. Leone: I just think that erotica, like anything else, like any other so called good writing, has to be writing of ideas. It doesn't, and a lot of erotica's bad because it so easily meanders into cliché and stereotype, and, as you say, what you expect to happen next. I'm actually running a course in erotica, in erotic writing at the end of June because I hate so much erotica and I want to encourage people to write it better. Kenrya: Yes, that's awesome. Okay. Erica: So please, as you have students that go through this course and come out of the course, we are always looking for good work. Kenrya: Right. Erica: Because... By black writers. Kenrya: By black writers, about black people. Leone: Okay, yeah. I'll put it your way. In fact, I'll go and I'll sit down and have a think. Kenrya: Oh, thank you. Leone: And not a lot of people are doing it, even less people are doing it well, but I'll go and sit down and do that. Kenrya: Thank you. That's super helpful. Erica: And one of the things that I want to know about your story is that it centers the woman. So often so much of the writing is in the guy's mind about how he's pleasing a woman and it was just... Our goal with this, our ideal listener, not to say we don't want all listeners, but our ideal listener is a woman. Kenrya: Or fem, or anybody really that doesn't identify as a man. Erica: Thank you, Kenrya. Erica: And we want to center those type of people. We want to feel, we want to read ourselves and see ourselves reflected in the work. So often we don't. So this was just a great story all around. Leone: Yes. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Leone: Thank you so much. I really appreciate you saying so. And just for the record, in case this affected your sound, I now have a cat sitting on my bosom. Purring. So clearly she was a blessing. I don't know how that's going to mess with your recording, but she's clearly blessing your first virgin journey. Erica: Blessed by the pussy. Kenrya: I love it, and it always comes back to bosoms, so hey. Leone: Always comes back to pussy. If you send to the pussy, nothing will ever go wrong. Kenrya: You're absolutely right. Kenrya: I feel like we need to put that on a tee shirt. Leone: Please do. Kenrya: Absolutely. Leone: Please do and give me my 10% Kenrya: Absolutely, got it. Kenrya: Well, thank you so, so much for joining us. Leone: You're really welcome. I wish you all the luck in the world with it. You obviously sound like two gorgeous, special, thoughtful, sexy women, and I love that. Kenrya: Oh, yay, and we love you. Kenrya: Where can people find you and your work? Leone: They can, I supposed the easiest thing for American readers would be to look for Come Let Us Sing Anyway on Amazon, you can find it on amazon.com and amazon.co.uk or you can Google my publishers, I think this is important because they're a small indie and they need the support, and actually, I make more money if you buy it from them than Amazon. Fuck Amazon. So their name is Peepal Tree, P-E-E-P-A-L, Peepal Tree, Peepal Tree Press, and they are the biggest Caribbean and Black British publisher. So they need some bigging up, so I would just Google Peepal Tree Press. Kenrya: Fantastic. And you're on Instagram @leone.ross, and Twitter is @leoneross all together? Leone: Yep, that's me. Kenrya: Awesome. Kenrya: Y'all go follow her. We're gonna drop details to her writing in the show notes for this episode to make it that much easier, so... Leone: I think the other thing as well, obviously we needn't put this on the recording if you don't want to, but I think this is important for people just if they want help. I run an occasional blog called Dear Writer Girl on my website, which is leoneross.com, just that can be of help to people and it includes someone asking me about how to write erotica really well, and there's quite a long answer on that. So if people are interested in that they're welcome to go find it. Kenrya: Perfect. Thank you so much for sharing that. Erica: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Leone: Thank you so much for your time. I'm so glad you asked me to do it. Kenrya: This was lovely. Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Erica and Kenrya, and edited by B'lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. Every five-star review that you post on Apple Podcast between now and July 31st, 2019 will be entered into a raffle to win a copy of one of the books that we read on the show. We need your help! We're giving away five books. You just need to post your review, and then email a screenshot of it to theturnonpodcast@gmail.com to enter. And please take a minute to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app, follow us on Twitter @theturnonpod, Instagram @theturnonpodcast, and find links to books, transcripts, guest info, and other dope shit at the turnonpodcast.com. Kenrya: Peace.
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Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES In Episode 1 of The Turn On, we read "Drag," a story from Leone Ross' "Come Let Us Sing Anyway," then—in honor of our first episode—we spill about some very special first times. Resources:
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information. TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Come here. Get off. Erica: Welcome to the first episode of The Turn On, hosted by me, Erica. Kenrya: And me, Kenrya. So thanks for coming. This as Erica said is our very first episode and we are very excited to be here. So on every show of The Turn On, we'll read a piece of black erotica that's designed to turn you on and then we'll talk about it and give you way too much information about ourselves. Erica: Way too much. Kenrya: And then, the following week, we'll come back and we'll talk to someone who's connected to the piece that we read. So it could be the person who wrote it, the person who put together the anthology that it appeared in. But somebody who can teach us a bit of something new about getting it in. Erica: So before we go to far, let's back up and talk about how we got here. First, we both love podcasts. Kenrya: Love them. Erica: We listen to them every single day and we've been wanting to do our own show for years. But you know how you throw out this idea and it never really goes anywhere. We've been saying that for awhile. We even had a meeting about it once. But I think we just got drunk and ended up watching a bunch of old black Christmas movies. Kenrya: That's mostly what we do. Erica: I know, but a couple of months ago, we decided to get really serious. Mostly because Kenrya decided she needed to tap the button. Kenrya: Lord. Every time you say that, it's like such a Erica-ism. Erica: Tap the button. Kenrya: I feel like I never even heard anybody else put it that way before. I love it. It's pretty unique. Erica: Tap tap titty tap. Kenrya: Yes. So I was getting ready to masturbate, for those of you who have also never heard tap the button. It takes prep. You got to get all your shit together. If you want porn, you got to get that together. If you... I don't know, what else do people use- Erica: Entering your keyword on your special site. Kenrya: Yes. But so for me, a lot of times-- Erica: Lock the door from the kids. Kenrya: Listen, bitch. Didn't my kid walk in on you tapping the button? She's never walked in on me. Because I lock my door, bitch. Erica: It was definitely some Children of the Corn shit. And I felt movement in the bedroom, but I have a dog and so I kind of thought it was the dog moving around. And then all of a sudden, I had these eyes on me. Kenrya: I'm sorry. Bitch, I been locking my door since she was three. Erica: Yeah. And she definitely exploited the fact that I'm not used to that. Kenrya: Can't do it, she's sneaky. But so, I was getting ready and one of the ways that I like to get myself together is to read a book. I like erotica. Shit that features black people. But, I really was thinking, you know, I'm kind of tired. Kind of just want to do this and go to sleep. It's a stress reliever, you know what I'm saying- Erica: Get that good sleep. Kenrya: Helps you relax your muscles, yes. So I want to do it in the dark, which means it's hard to read. I didn't want to go through all of that. And since we like podcasts, I was like it would be really dope if somebody could just read some nasty shit to me. And then I could use that to get there. So I went on the podcast app-- Erica: Podcast app. Kenrya: Yeah, on iTunes, and I started searching for erotica. And there really wasn't anything there except for this white lady. And she kept saying, "Cock." Erica: Cocks. Kenrya: Yes. But it was-- Erica: His throbbing cock. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: His member. Kenrya: And nipples. Erica: Strawberry red. I'm like, no. Kenrya: Bitch, no. That's not what I want to see. Erica: I like purple, not red. Kenrya: Purple and bulging and like- Erica: Okay. Kenrya: Sorry. I got carried away. So there was none of that. And I was like yo, this is something that should be out here in the world. And we some nasty bitches. We should do this shit. Erica: So we did. So here we are. I love everything about sex. Learning about it, trying new things, talking about it to people and so I'm excited to use this podcast to do that and learn more. Kenrya: And it's really dope because we get to do it together. Erica: Yup yup, ding ding. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: So Kenrya is my bottom bitch. We met in college about 16 years ago and we have been best fucking friends ever since. Kenrya: Forever. Erica: So we are now going to push past all that bullshit that says we have to either be hos or somebody's mama because I frankly am both. Kenrya: Both. It's like that gif that everybody puts on Twitter. Both. Erica: Both. Kenrya: Both. Erica: So we're going to push past all that shit and we're going to do that by reading about some sexy shit, learning some sexy shit, and passing it on to you. Kenrya: Yup. The Turn On is a show for black folks who want to get off and we want to open our minds while we do it. It'll show that we can love and we can fuck and it doesn't have to be political or scandalous or dirty unless we want it to be. Erica: So for our first episode, we're going to go with a really good story called Drag. It's written by this British novelist, editor, and educator, Leone Ross. Kenrya: And we picked it because it's sexy as fuck. Erica: Sexy. Kenrya: Yeah, it felt like a good place to start. We'll talk about it a bit later so we won't give you too much information but you never really quite know what's going to happen next. I think that's one of the things I like best about it. Erica: Yes. So get whatever you need to get together to-- Kenrya: Do ya prep. Erica: Light your candles, lock your door please. Kenrya: Listen. Erica: Settle in. Kenrya: Put your headphones on because this ain't safe for work or kids. Erica: Yeah. But you should know. If you're here by now, you know that. Settle in, relax and let's start the show. Kenrya: Let's get it. Kenrya: Drag, by Leone Ross. Kenrya: Today I feel like a drag queen. Walking down Soho way through the tourists and the catcalls. My crotch is aching under the good jeans and the bad underwear, watching the freaks go by, acres of eyeliner and jangly earrings and crap T-shirts that pass for fashion, walking and making sure my hips sway in calypso circles. Kenrya: Today I feel like a drag queen. The top layer of me is a bouncing and behaving woman. I'm all rounded tits and a belly button so deep you could play strip poker inside it. But underneath that, I feel like a boy. 18 years old, slim hips, shoulders so strong I could carry the world, baby-soft face and mascara eyes. The boy in me lengthens my stride and gives me attitude. He looks out from under my eyelashes. I'm working it. I'm being seen. I'm shimmying. "The only thing I want to drink more than a beer tonight is you." I look up. He's not my type. His head would bang into doorways. We couldn't even dance. I'd be stuck just above his navel. I don't like liquorice-colored men. But today the boy inside me needs a fuck. From anybody. He's leaning against a porn shop. I can see those plastic ribbon thingies that they insist you pass through, like a time machine. No, like a seedy entrance to a boudoir. I think that his face is open, that it reminds me of a child's. He is even yummy, with a second glance. I look at him. Grin. "Going inside?" I say. "No," he laughs. "Come inside with me," I say. We wander around the interior. It's dark and silly and small waves of embarrassed men part before us. They try to pretend that none of us are there. I pick up the worst of the porn, speak loudly, point out cum shots and women dressed as little girls. I even find a puzzled, swollen donkey. We discuss measurements at the tops of our voices, pretending to be serious. Men begin to leave. The proprietor looks indignant. I turn more pages and I laugh in my boy's face and watch our arms, side by side, both bruise-colored. His lips thrust through graceful stubble. "What's your name?" he says. "Jo," I reply. He looks amused. As if he knows. "Joanna? Josephine?" "Just Jo. Call me Jo," I say. "I'm Jason," he says. I like the way he says his name. Like it fits him, like he's new. Like he's the only Jason in the world. The proprietor grimaces and rolls his eyes. We are nearly alone in the shop. The last man is trying not to look me in the face as he wiggles past us. He wants to fuck me, but he doesn't want me to see that. Jason moves to let him go by. I love that he does not try to protect me from the lust in the man. He stands next to me, trusting me in my own space, like I'm his equal. Like I'm strong. Back at my flat he lays me across my bed, in between pages of my thesis. I am writing about Black people in British ads, like how there are none. He doesn't care. The head of his dick is swollen and purple red. He is watching me closely. I tighten the muscles in my stomach, flex my shoulders. I want my body to feel like concrete when he touches me. I run my hands along my thighs, pretending the hair there is pepper grains. I'm holding the bunch of roses he bought me in Leicester Square, tight. A thorn sticks through my flesh and I can feel a tiny bead of blood on my palm. Jason crouches over me, pulls the roses away slowly. Then he is ripping them apart and scattering petals, stalks, thorns, across my breasts. "Tell me how you want me to be," he pants. "Fuck me like I'm a boy," I say. He puts a thumb up my cunt, parting the folds. It is a small sword through honey. I twist away, annoyed. "No," I say. My voice is shaking. I want him to understand so bad, but I don't want to talk. "Like you're fucking yourself." He's lying on top of me, his cock rubbing against my tummy. It's wet there. He rubs himself across me, hipbone to hipbone. He's running a bass line through me. I can feel it everywhere. In my wrist, making my mouth reverberate. He licks the blood off my palm, thoughtfully. "That's hardly safe," I say. "So?" he says, and flips me over. My clit's rubbing against the white duvet and I can feel it growing, swelling, tumescent, hard against my belly. He's spitting on his fingers, rubbing them up and down my asshole. His breath is lost in my hair. He pauses against the entrance, like there's a stop sign. Like he needs permission just one more time. "Go on," I say. I've never done this before and it needs to be now. "Go on." He pushes gently. The head slips in. Agony. I twist, trying to accommodate. "Oh fuck," he groans against my ear. I feel like a girl about to be taken. I fight against the femininity. I don't want it, not today. I want the abandonment, the urgency of a boy, but it's no good. I'm afraid. Straining, anxious, I push myself onto my elbows. He's still being tentative. He's halfway in, but my body is groaning, rejecting it. He is sliding into a tube of sandpaper. My whole body is shaking and my head is shaking. I can't be a boy this way. A million pins dance the length of my ass. I hear myself calling for time out. "Jason, let's stop." He ignores me, thrusts a hand underneath us, begins to play with my clit, twisting, insistent, rubbing me in hard circles. I love the weight of him on top of me. I am pinned in a slow-moving dream. "No," I say, but it's working. I can feel my ass melting, widening, moisture seeping out of chocolate walls. "Your name is Jason." He whispers it against my hair. "You're up against the wall. It's Carnival and you're up against a brick wall, and I'm fucking you in the ass. Your cock is rubbing against the wall. You're so hard. We met five minutes ago and I rub the muscles in your arms." He's all the way inside me, a metal bar against my ass cheeks, the heel of his hand grinding into my clit, and nothing hurts anymore. I can hear myself. I'm growling and I can hear the soca in the distance and when I look up I can see shocked grannies, amused revelers. I can see a policeman cocking his head to the side. Are they really doing that? He starts up the street and I can see him, ready to arrest two queer niggers. "I rub the muscles in your arms and now I'm all the way up your ass. Your name is Jason." I have no breasts. My chest is flat. I shift, undulate. I've become a smooth runway that pours from the base of my arched neck, down my shoulder blades, spreads across my hips, pushes my ass up into him. I'm an oil machine, gleaming with afternoon sweat. Jason takes a breath, pulls halfway out, plunges into me, savage, uncompromising. His hand is a blur. I howl. Delicious. Afterwards, he knows how to be. I tell him my full, girl name. Today I feel like an executive. My hair is scraped off my face and the makeup is effortless. Walking into a classy restaurant, the London sun streaming through the French windows, melting the clientele like individual ice cream cakes. I'm in a black suit underneath, the lingerie is apricot. My heels are sensible. Before I leave the office my boss tells me to use everything I've got. He winks. Everything. He thinks he's a feminist, but he is not above pimping me out. Today I feel like an executive. Facts and figures flow from my fingertips. My voice is controlled and assertive. But underneath is so much more. An ambitious 25 year old who lies in the bath and dreams of power. Rubber duck in the bath tells me I should have a flat on the Riviera, a penthouse in New York. Bubbles promise me a walk-in closet of designer clothes, three personal assistants and gleaming, expensive technology. I am a multi-million dollar deal. "Josephine." I love his voice. I look up. He's in a sharp suit, dark. Women's heads swivel, and I think, "Blonde bitches," and hold onto the glass of water tightly. He scoops condensation from the edge and rubs it between his fingers back and forth. I can't stop looking. I remember his hands on me and shiver in the heat. "Long time no see," I say. "So?" he says. Climbs right in next to me. "You can't stay," I say. My thighs are humming. "I have a important client coming." He stays. He introduces himself as my colleague when the client arrives. The client orders tea and discusses cost-effectiveness and the implications of visual versus voiceover, whether we need a celebrity or normal actresses. Tells me there are other ad companies waiting in line. I nod and sound intelligent. Jason puts his hand up my skirt. My knees snap together instinctively. He is cupping me, like I'm a small, precious thing. I can smell myself across the sophisticated room. Pussy mixed with golden marigolds at the windowsill. He uses one long, insistent finger. Rubs just above my clitoris. I try to edge him nearer the brink of me. Inside I'm an empty roll of wet muscles. I could play him like a flute, if only we were far from here. His finger is still stroking the hair, just the hair. I wonder if the teasing is on purpose, suck in my breath as he hits the mark, just to show off. Back to the top. Then down again. Light circles. I try to slow my breathing. "You see, we think that speaking to women in their own language will knock the socks off the competition," says the client. A single crumb sits on his neat mustache. I want to lick it off. I want to grab his head and push it between my breasts and scream. I want them both to fuck me across the table. "Perhaps animation," says the client. "Mm-hmm (affirmative)," I say. Jason's finger eases inside me, taking all the daylight in the room with it. I am sitting in a pool of summer. He puts a thumb back on my clit and it jumps like it's Christmas. I push my hips forward. They're doing circles. Tight, wide, urgent. Jason's skin is boiling. "Could you, order some coffee?" I say to the client. He turns and signals for the waitress. Jason pulls his hand out of me and licks his fingers. One, two, three. I hide a groan in my napkin. The client smiles at me, clueless. I smile back. Jason asks him a question. I can't hear him. I am literally deaf. The client leans forward. Jason leans toward him, his fingers back, twiddling me. I sip scalding coffee. Burn my tongue. Put my hand on top of Jason's hand. Press him into me. My eyes are begging. "Harder," I say. "Pardon?" says the client. "It must be hard to deal with established competitors. It must get harder every day. Harder and harder." "Ah," says the client. I want to close my eyes. I can feel my orgasm tickling the base of my spine, but I'm talking and talking and the words are scrabble squares on a board, meaningless, but full of potential. I want to lean back in my chair. Tell them both that one day I will be able to buy them with a flick of my well-manicured fingers. Jason puts his hand on my inner thigh and pushes my legs as wide as they can go. Grasps my panties and pushes them roughly aside. I can hear a rip. He pushes something small and cold up me. I bite my lip and my hand on the table goes into involuntary spasm. He makes me touch myself with the other one. He bites his bottom lip as our entwined fingers touch two tiny balls. They feel as if they should be silver. We stir them around, coaxing juice out of me. My hand is frothy. They tinkle, I'm sure. The client is talking. Jason leans into my shoulder. "Pussy music," he whispers. My hips begin to buck. I'm beyond speech. All I can do is nod and the waves are getting more intense. My breasts are spilling out of my bra, they're so swollen. I'm breathing through my nose and yes, he's giving me what I want. He's rubbing my clit the way I like it, hard and God, so dirty, and the balls are revolving, tinkling, pulling it all out of me. I surrender, lean forward into the tablecloth. "Are you all right?" the man chorus it above me. The client is calling, "Waitress, waitress, she's having a fit." Everybody around me is looking afraid and concerned. "Is she choking? Someone do the Heimlich on her ass," and Jason is all the way up in my face, one arm round my shoulder. "Jo, you okay? Hush, baby, hush," but there's a fierce twinkle in his eye and his whole body is saying, "Be quick, Josephine, be cost-effective. Exert your power. Cum for me, before the place erupts. I'm going to have to take my hand away. Cum for me," and then I'm screaming. I can't believe that I'm letting my body jerk all over this posh restaurant, there's something so powerful about it all. I'm cumming in their faces and nobody knows. My nails are scraping the tablecloth and someone cries out as the coffee cup shatters on the floor and I'm trying not to laugh, my cute little ass still jerking. You know those slow wave, post-cum jerks that feel like aftershocks? And I've put my fingernails through the flesh between Jason's neck and his shoulder and I can tell it really hurts him, but he's trying not to laugh too. And even as the waitress rushes over, Jason coaxes another little one. Just a tiny baby orgasm out of me, because he's greedy like that, and then it's done and he's wiping his hand free of pussy juice. Wiping it all over his face and his pretty man cheekbones and I'm like fuck, fuck. I want to laugh. That's all I feel like doing, laughing. So I do. Delicious. Afterwards the client calls to make sure I'm all right. We get the deal. Pussy power. Today, I feel like a bride. Walking through the special room set aside for me in the back of the church. All Vera Wang class. If I could blush I'd be blushing in the mirror. There is one hour to go. My bridesmaids, all 10 of them, have floated away, leaving me time. I do not know where they came from. None of them are my friends. My dress has cost 8000 pounds. Microscopic pearls are almost invisible at the hemline, the bodice. Diamonds snigger in my ear and make promises. The dress reminds me of Victoria Falls in Zimbabwe at sunset, a huge flow of everything white in the world, roaring snowflakes, pools of chalk dust, bleached frost. Today, I feel like a bride. Fragrant. I am every love song ever played. I am pink. I am the Wedding March personified. I am God's best promise, an open sack waiting to be filled with matrimonially-blessed seed. I am hope. But underneath, I am a 39 year old woman who is slipping, gratefully, off the shelf. A wedding cake, blind drunk with rum. I am the solemn, desperate hopes of my mother. I have lost my way. I have no choice. "You're beautiful." I look up. I don't know how he got in. Gray hair fondles his temples. "Thank you," I say. "So," Jason says. He sits down at my feet, cross-legged. I can barely see him over the lace. "What?" I say. "What do you want?" He shakes his head. Gets up without using his hands, so graceful. Then he's back, with a sky blue bowl. I can smell the lotion, my grandmother's kitchen. "What is it?" I say. "I made it," he says. He takes one perfect shoe off my foot. His hands are warm in the autumn breeze dancing through the church cracks. His palms are tender, and my body is already sweeter than it was before, like someone dropped sugarcane into my heart, pumped it 1000 miles a minute through my bloodstream. He draws patterns on my soles, my ankles, my thighs, pushing up through miles of dress. I sit down, legs akimbo, my back against the wall. I am whimpering as he runs his soft tongue through the hair down there, plaiting me, dipping his mouth into me, drinking me. His moistened hands have slipped under the dress's bodice and my breasts feel young again. Perky, coffee-colored beginnings. My nipples are tiny silver balls. He is rubbing his magic lotion into my crotch, pouring it across my thighs. It's slick and drips off my soft belly, puddling and sinks into 8000 pounds worth of promises. He parts the lips of my pussy, as if in prayer. I watch him rubbing warm lotion over his cock, one hand on my hip. Then there are careful inches, pushing inside me. I groan. Oh, I groan. We've never made love before. I wonder why as I gather him into me. I wonder why, because this is a symphony of scent and breath, high notes of lemon and the pure sob of cinnamon and the darkness of cloves. I wonder why as I say his name, over and over, like I'm hushing a baby. It is almost too good. He watches me writhe as he fucks me. His hand dives between our bodies. I listen to the old, familiar sound of him rubbing me. His eyes are kind as I gasp and drum my fists against his back. "So this is what you feel like," he says. He's trying to be cool, but his voice is too shaky. I smile, my eyes closed. "Does it feel good?" I want him to feel good. "Oh yes," he says, and pushes his hands forward once more. His penis is kissing me, tiny wet kisses along the length of me, so certain. He looks into my face. One finger, delicate, gathers the tear on my cheek. "Who am I?" I say. Jason pushes into me and reminds me who I am. He tears off one pearl and fucks me juicy. He tears another and fucks me deep. I join him, fingernails sliding through cloth and lace. The dress disintegrates, baring me dark and sticky against the church floor. I'm throwing pearls across the room. We sound like animals being loved, coughing primal sounds over our lips and down our thrashing bodies. My hands are digging into his ass, pushing him further in. I have a finger inside him where it's hot and secret, guiding him, showing him how to move, how to please me. He is whining, but through it all, "Who are you, who are you, who are you?" He's saying. And I'm a drag queen, 18 years old, trying a little something-something with the new beat of my clit. I'm a 25 year old executive, even though I never made a million. I'm years of expectations. I'm a cop-out, thinking I needed to be Cinderella because God knows my mother needs grandchildren. I'm a fuck. I'm a friend. Yeah I remember who they are. I'm enough. I'm enough. I'm just right. Birds whistle at the window as we swirl into orgasm. Afterward, I leave him in a pile, run down the aisle, cupping what's left of Vera Wang to my tits, the wedding party's mouth all O's of shock, but I can see delight in the ones who are glad. Out into the shuddering light of the autumn afternoon. I hail a cab. Kick my bare feet up on the glass between me and the cab man. Delicious. "Drive," I say. Erica: So first impressions of the story, I absolutely loved it. First time I read it, I'll be really honest. I don't need a story. This endeavor is new for me because I am not a erotic literature kind of gal. I am a whatever freclip you got on Pornhub or somebody else, that's all I need. So this was definitely different and I feel like this was a good entry story for us. Because it gave a good story, but it also- Kenrya: That shit was hot. Erica: Yeah, it was just really fucking hot. It was great stories, great scenarios. I loved it. However, it took me a minute to get exactly what was going on and by a minute, I mean I had to hear from Kenrya exactly what was happening in the story. Which made me love it even more. Kenrya: As you know we just heard, it's role play, really when it comes down to it. I think very often when we think about role play, we think about the costumes you got tucked up in the closet. I have some of those costumes. Erica: Girl. Costumes. Kenrya: I don't really use mine, though. Not anymore. I think there's a bit of a lot going on so I can see how it could be a little bit difficult to track because she's like, "Today, I feel like this." And it's like okay bitch, but you was just something else yesterday. Erica: Yeah, I'm like so is this dude just dropping in and out of her life every now and then? Kenrya: That's what I think it was. Erica: Does he just show up because, girl. Kenrya: I think he just appears like Candyman. Erica: The Ghost of Dicks Past. The Ghost of Pussy Past. So I have this term. I call it Ghost of Pussy Past. And essentially it's just old dick. Niggas you used to fuck with that just happen to pop back up in and out of your life like Casper. You know what? I just saw Us. These niggas tethered to the pussy. You know what, let me not say that. Kenrya: Because that's scary. Erica: That sounds like-- Kenrya: Like they going to murder the pussy with scissors. Erica: That sounds Soul Ties and we don't need Crystal Pussy Twitter coming after us. Kenrya: Fucking Crystal Pussy Twitter. Erica: Okay, but yeah. It was just like I would fucking scream if I'm at work trying to meet with a client or do something work-like and the Ghost of Pussy Past pop up- Kenrya: And put his hand in your pussy. Erica: And let's be honest, there's a few ghosts if they popped up and put they hand in my pussy, I'd be like, "Well, hello. Let's see where this goes." Kenrya: Not in the middle of a client meeting. That ain't for you? Erica: Bitch, no. Because I am... you think I am expressive on this mic? Wait until I'm rocking another mic. There's no way in hell I would be able to do that, but nonetheless. Kenrya: Hell no. Erica: I really liked how she went through various levels in various periods in her life. But it took me a minute to understand exactly what was going on. Kenrya: Yeah, so to me, it's like she's trying on different roles. It's essentially role play. I think so often when we think of role play, especially as it relates to sex, we think of costumes and shit. Which, I mean I had my costume period. I had my... okay, what do I have? I still have some, but I honestly don't use them anymore. It was a very short-lived period. I was trying to spice up some shit that I should have just let go. Erica: And you know what, we find ourselves doing that, trying to spice up and add- Kenrya: When you just need to tell that nigga to go. Erica: Put some stank on some things that don't need no stank. Kenrya: Right. So yeah. But I still have them. It's probably been a smooth 10 years since I put on a costume. And part of it is because I'm not in no shit that I got to spice up. My shit is extra hot all the time. Erica: Yeah. And that's not to say that if you don't... if role play is your thing-- Kenrya: That that's the only way, exactly, exactly. Erica: I feel like so often as women, we find ourselves in a relationship that's not working and we turn to, "What can I-" and I think it's important to do some self-reflection-- Kenrya: Keep it new. Erica: But I think, we so often we turn to, "What's the latest trick I can do to show him, to prove to him, to wow him." And it's like, girl, if this ain't natural, then don't, don't try. Kenrya: Right because a lot of times that looks like forcing it, right? It's a nigga that you probably shouldn't be with to begin with. Erica: Exactly. Kenrya: And if you can't have an actual conversation with him about what y'all need to do to make things great for both of y'all, like if you ain't cumming, or he not keeping it hard, maybe there's something else y'all need to talk about. Erica: And that fucking fluffy unicorn costume ain't going to help. That's not it. Kenrya: Bitch, you got a fluffy unicorn costume? Erica: No, I do not have a fluffy unicorn costume. You know, I don't think I did too many of the costumes. I am comfortable with my body. I have no problem walking around naked. I have no problem being sexual. Something about costumes turn me into a fucking dork. I am like, "Meep, moop, meep, moop. I am a robot. I'm a baby dinosaur." I become a complete and utter dork when costumes are introduced. Erica: So when I do the role playing, it's more like in the first scene, where we were... I talk a whole lot of shit during sex. So our role playing comes in when I'm just talking shit, as opposed to actual costumes. But what are your costumes? Kenrya: I have a maid's costume. Erica: Which is not fucking fun. Kenrya: Aint nothing fun about that. But when I bought it, I was I don't know, 25, 26, living in an apartment by myself. I guess I thought that was sexy, but ain't shit sexy about cleaning up. Erica: Ain't shit sexy about cleaning up because- Kenrya: That's like my whole life now. Erica: Exactly. When I think about cleaning up, I'm thinking of how quickly can I do it before I get to bed. Kenrya: Yeah and ain't no special outfit for that shit. Erica: Fuck no, I ain't getting bleach on these good pants. Kenrya: But I do... When I got that costume, I also got a feather duster, and that shit- Erica: The feather duster is good- Kenrya: Because when you from behind, run that shit down your spine. Erica: Titillating. Kenrya: Wait, so this bitch think she can do ASMR. Erica: Titillating. Kenrya: She sends me random videos of herself eating fucking pickles and drumming her goddamn nails on- Erica: I'll never post it on IG. Kenrya: But she send them to me. Erica: Because you special, bitch. Kenrya: I'm special. Erica: The feather duster comes in handy. Kenrya: Yes. That's good. And then I have a police person costume. And here's the thing. Police are fine. That shit ain't sexy. Erica: Not at all. Kenrya: And the reality is most of the time when I think about police, I'm worried about my life and the people who I love. Erica: Exactly. Kenrya: And that don't really make me wet. Erica: Even, now that you mention it, remember the Lil Wayne song Mrs. Officer? Kenrya: Wait, that was two of our friends. Erica: It was they song. They played it at their wedding. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: You know who you are. Kenrya: Yup. Erica: Shout out to y'all. Kenrya: And I still think of them every time I hear that- Erica: Which is... However. Kenrya: It's an abuse of power. Erica: And it's just like there are so many more things we can do other than playing cops and robbers. That's not cute. Kenrya: It's not, so yeah. So I don't use my costumes anymore. Well, but pieces of the costume, because I love a good restraint. Erica: If you got some good handcuffs, yes bitch. However- Kenrya: I need to get some better ones. Erica: I found that when introducing handcuffs with black men is difficult because you pull out the handcuffs and they like, "No bitch, we ain't doing this." And I'm like, "Wait, no, not you, me. Tie me up." And then after more conversation, it becomes a thing. Kenrya: So I too, enjoy a good handcuff. Erica: I too, enjoy a good cuffing. Kenrya: But I've never... I don't think they've ever assumed I was going to put them shits on them. Erica: You know what- Kenrya: They just put them shits on me and keep it moving. Erica: Well, you know, this is also, "Meep, moop, meep, moop," Erica. It's like, what the fuck this robot dinosaur about to do. Erica: Cuffs, I've found they're much better when you do restraints as opposed to cuffs. Because handcuffs are for play play. When you really into doing some restraint shit, get you a good restraint, the leather kind. Kenrya: So wait, are they attached or can you... because my thing is I want to put them where you can spread across the bed. Erica: So the pair that I have, they have the clips so you can attach- Kenrya: You can attach them. Erica: But also, they have a hook. So that you can run them through ropes and stuff. Kenrya: I need to get those, okay. Erica: Actually I have a friend... So I got a someone that I once dated- Kenrya: Did you date him or did you just fuck him? Erica: Well, we was just fucking. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: So you go into his house and he has a nice bed and it's really nice. And once you start looking, you be like, "Are those O-rings bolted to each corner of your bed?" Kenrya: Oh, he's prepared. Erica: Oh he was so prepared. This nigga fucking bolted O-rings to each corner of his bed and it's kind of in some you don't really see what's going on- Kenrya: Until you really look close. Erica: ... until you tied up and like, "Oh shit. That's how this nigga did it." Kenrya: He's committed. Erica: Really committed. And guess what? Kenrya: What? Erica: I'm about to be that committed. Because my next bedroom set, I've definitely been looking at like, "So how can we-" Kenrya: Tie some shit onto it. Erica: ... "whore this up?" Take it and just sprinkle a little ho on it. Kenrya: It's important. Erica: It's important to just- Kenrya: Sprinkle a little ho on some shit. Erica: It's like Frank's Hot Sauce. We put that shit on everything. Put a little on everything. Kenrya: Yes. With the story, in my mind, she is stepping into different roles. She is trying on different versions of herself to try to figure out which one fits. So in the first one, which I don't agree with, but she associates femininity with a lack of power. She said she doesn't want to feel feminine. She doesn't want to be a girl, because she doesn't want to be taken. You and I kind of have that opposite situation going on. Where ain't nobody taking shit. Erica: I give you. Kenrya: But she's also 18 in that scene. So very often, we got to grow... shit, I had to grow into that. So it makes sense as an 18 year old. I had a little bit of a problem. It was interesting. Before he started trying to fuck her in the ass, he did pause and he was asking for- Erica: For consent. Kenrya: ... for consent again. Erica: Which was great. Kenrya: That was really good to see that. But then, once he started and she couldn't take it and she said, "Hey we should just stop," and he didn't and he kept pushing. Yes, okay she said she wanted it and it started to feel good. As somebody who has had a dick in her ass, nigga when I say stop, you stop. Erica: Yeah, I hear you. And see this is where it gets really dicey. Because I actually very recently had a situation kind of similar to that. I was with a very determined individual who... see, it's hard, because it worked out. Kenrya: I mean it worked out here, too, but it made me cringe a little. Erica: We were doing it and there's no way to judge it or feel it out. And this is where the whole sexual assault thing becomes so... I don't want to call it the thing like it's something- Kenrya: New or trendy. Erica: ... some fucking game or some shit. But this is where it gets very difficult. Because sometimes it's hard to tell when a, "No," is. Because I fuck around all the time. But you know what, it worked because I did not use our safe word. Kenrya: Oh, well okay. Well then you had a system set up, though. Erica: I definitely have a system set up. But it was like one of them, "Ooh, I don't know. This ain't going to work." Kenrya: And then it worked. Erica: He was like, "Keep trying bitch. Keep bearing down." And it worked and sweet Jesus did the gates of the Lord open like my butt. Kenrya: But see, having a safe word was part of your consent process and she was with a fucking stranger. Erica: Very true, very true. Kenrya: So I mean that part was a little tough for me. But she felt fine. We believe women and she said that she was cool, so it was fine. Erica: And you know what was great? I like how it was very distinct periods in her life, because I feel like we've all been... I feel like at 18 was really when I started... no. So when I got into college was really when I started trying to kind of explore my sexuality. I mean you know I had sex in high school, but it was more- Kenrya: In the back of somebody's car? Erica: Bitch. Kenrya: Just the tip. Erica: I fucking lost my virginity on a waterbed. Kenrya: Okay so wait, y'all. So Erica is my best friend. We've known each other since our junior year of college. I ain't never heard this story before. I think it's only appropriate that you tell it today. Erica: Because we're talking about first times? Kenrya: Yup. Erica: So I was in band. I was a little ashy little girl in band. Kenrya: Wait, what did you play? Erica: The flute. I was a flautist. Kenrya: I knew this. We had to let the people know. Erica: I played the flute. And I was actually so bad that my mama thought I was first chair, but the first chair was on the other side. Kenrya: So you were last chair. Erica: I was just like a bitch. Kenrya: I mean you got to go to games. Erica: Just... I was touching things. Kenrya: Were you in marching band? Erica: This was marching band. So there was this guy and he was in the marching band. I don't even fucking remember that nigga's name. But anyway. Erica: So it's maybe spring... no, it was summer. Because you're preparing for the season or whatever. So we're all at somebody's house and we flirting and stuff. My dumb ass, nigga smiled too hard. No. I will not judge myself. Kenrya: That's right. Erica: Kenrya shot me a look. So I was just... I wasn't ready. You know you in a place where a little rock-biting nigga smile at you. And you're like, "Oh, I like how that tooth hang out his mouth when he eat." I shouldn't have done it. But anyway. Kenrya: It's part of your experience. Erica: So he's smiling. The light was hitting that tooth. Kenrya: It's like gleaming, ding! Erica: So we go in the back to his homeboy's room. Was it his homeboy's or his homeboy's mom? I don't know. But we was like in the back and we get on the fucking waterbed. Okay first- Kenrya: What year was this? Erica: Fucking like- Kenrya: '97, '98? Erica: '97, '98. So like '97. You know he had a waterbed so it couldn't have been the mama because if you are an adult- Kenrya: A waterbed is not cool. Erica: So anyway. We go in the back and there's this fucking waterbed. So we start fooling around. It is a fucking waterbed. With sex, the most important thing about sex is leverage. Kenrya: Exactly. Erica: That's why niggas take off they socks, they put them little hospital joints on so you get the grip- Kenrya: Need some traction. Erica: You need some traction. Do you not need to be floating around- Kenrya: Plus he was probably very new, too. Erica: And don't nobody know what you doing, so it was the fucking worst, most awkward shit. And then what makes it even worse. Kenrya: What? Erica: A nigga walks in. Kenrya: I'm sorry. Erica: We was in there like... Because look, I've been walked in on- Kenrya: Were y'all even like naked or anything? Erica: I've been walked in on multiple times, and I am like, "Look, you caught a bit of this. Bitch, take notes." Kenrya: Right. Erica: This time, it was like he walked in and was like, "Hey." And I was like... I don't even remember if I was naked. Kenrya: I feel like when you're young like that- Erica: I probably wasn't. He just open, spaces. Kenrya: Yeah. With somebody people room and shit. Erica: It was the fucking worst. Primarily because one, we didn't know what we was doing and two, we didn't have fucking leverage. You need traction. You need to be pushing off of things and we were two little ashy ass kids floating in a sea of cheap ass 12 count, 1-ply ass polyester sheets. It was just disgusting. And this is also when I tell little girls about having sex, I'm like, "Girl wait because-" Kenrya: You deserve so much more. Erica: You deserve a better story other than fucking rock-biter on a fucking waterbed in somebody house. Like, girl. Kenrya: Since everybody want to podcast these days, they could at least be thinking about how they might have to tell that story one day. Erica: Exactly. So I've had a chance to lose my virginity a few more times after that and it was delightful. Kenrya: Delightful. So yeah. I like that she is different people at different times. And you can see her growth. But also that she called herself out in that last one, right? She felt like a bride, but she only felt like a bride because her mama was forcing her. And I love that- Erica: That is some transformational dick. That dick was like... It knocked some sense in her. Kenrya: I don't want to give him that much credit. Erica: And I was just about to say, "Men don't think that you got transformational." Your dick ain't that magical. What happens is you just- Kenrya: She remembered herself. Erica: ... knock a little piece of her into place. Kenrya: That's right. Erica: It was more her. Your dick was helpful, but you know. Kenrya: It was an assist. Erica: Yeah, it was an assist. Kenrya: But she figured that shit out. Erica: I would have used a sports metaphor, but I know nothing about it. Kenrya: That's a sports assist, like in basketball. Erica: Where they like throw something and catch and be like ‘boop’. Kenrya: I'm going to go ahead and say no. Erica: Okay, excuse me. Whatever. Kenrya: I love that she got there. Not only did she bounce. We never found out what the nigga’s name was she was supposed to marry because nigga don't matter. And I think if this had been... I mean, this would never be a romantic comedy, but if it had been a movie, she would have walked out hand-in-hand with this nigga or hit the altar and they would have gotten married or some bullshit- Erica: Bullshit. Kenrya: But she said, "I left him in a pile on the floor." And I was like, "Yes bitch." It was all I could do not to yell that as I was reading it. And it's not because I don't like men. I love men. But that it wasn't about him. Erica: It was about her. And how she found herself. Kenrya: He wasn't saving her. She was saving herself. Erica: So I actually really loved this. Thank you for the pick, Kenrya, because this was a good starter. Thank you for getting us wet. Kenrya: Ooh, I like it. So I think that since this is our first episode and we just talked a little bit about your first time having sex- Erica: On a fucking waterbed. Kenrya: ... on a waterbed, we'll save my first time story for another time. But, this was also Josephine's first time doing something. Erica: What what... no talk. I'm going to give you the background. Kenrya: Okay cool. It was her first time having anal sex. Yes, what what in the butt. So wait, she sings this shit all the time. First of all, she don't even know where it came from. Erica: Yeah, I don't. I just sing it because it just makes... Isn't it a great little ditty? Kenrya: It was a viral video though. Yes, just like that. Both: What what in the butt. Erica: We make songs for everything. Kenrya: We do, a lot. But she also sings it at fucking inappropriate times. I had to have a colonoscopy. Erica: Well there are lots of times when things are going in your butt. It's not that it's inappropriate times, it's the appropriate time. Kenrya: Bitch, I was recovering- Erica: It's not like I'm singing it at like bar mitzvahs. Kenrya: I was still under anesthesia, still coming out- Erica: And that's when everyone's the most fun. Kenrya: ... still foggy. Erica: You should appreciate a good song. Kenrya: And this bitch called me singing What What in the Butt. Erica: And I sang it at mine. Kenrya: You did. At least it was equal opportunity. Erica: We sing it when we discuss things in the butt. Because what what, in the butt. Kenrya: That's what's up. Erica: Tell me about your first time. Kenrya: Okay. Unfortunately, my first time with anal was not fantastic. So I was in a situation that I was trying to force to work, just like Josephine with her wedding situation. But I waited way too long to walk away from that. But in the course of it, this nigger kept trying to get me to do anal. And I just wasn't really comfortable because reality was I didn't even like him that much by that time. Erica: Here's my thing. As someone that does do anal I don't... I mean, I like it. Kenrya: Yeah, I do too. Erica: But I also really hate it when guys- Kenrya: Pressure you for that shit. Erica: ... use pressure like, "Ooh, I want to try it. I want to try it. I want to try it." Like bro. Kenrya: Chill. It's my body. We'll do it at some point- Erica: I will give you the privilege- Kenrya: ... but why does it have to be some big huge thing? Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: I don't know. Erica: Okay. Kenrya: But so he kept pressuring me for it and finally one day, talk about spicing shit up. I was like, "All right, we can try." And so, you know, the lube, the whatever. But for me, I have to be... Like yeah, I can have one-night stands. I have plenty. I still have to want it. It doesn't have to be an emotional connection so much. I got to really want to fucking do it and I didn't want to do it. Kenrya: So he attempted. It was a big dick. Which makes things more difficult. Erica: Note of the day, if you got a big dick, don't be asking for too much anal. Because it takes a pro. You got a nice smedium dick? Even a small dick. I appreciate a small dick. Kenrya: In the butt. Erica: If you know what you're doing. Kenrya: Yeah, yeah. No problem. So I didn't really want to do it. So he tried and it hurt. And I was like, "Fuck. No. Stop." And so that was it. That's the extent of my first anal experience. Erica: Girl when they be trying and it don't work... I did not understand the expression, "Seeing stars," until I had a nigga, 'accidentally,' and I mean this in air quotes, ram it up my butt. Not even ram it up my butt. Try to get it up my butt. Bitch, I literally- Kenrya: Ain't no accidental about that shit. Erica: ... was like fucking Bugs Bunny. On my stomach, with stars- Kenrya: Circling around your head? Erica: Stars and birds circling around my head. That shit is not fun. Kenrya: No, it's not. Erica: So my first time doing it... I like trying new things. I consider myself a try-sexual. I will try anything once, except for scat play. You are not shitting on me, I am not shitting on you. Other than that, bitch we can try. Kenrya: They got all these weird ass... No, we are, but interesting names for that shit. So we- Erica: As my granny said, "Wait-" Kenrya: No, but there's like a Cleveland Steamer or some. Erica: Yeah, that's when you... nevermind. Kenrya: No, tell us what it is. Erica: So I think a Cleveland Steamer is when you shit on they chest or something like that. Kenrya: But I'm like why y'all got to bring my city into this shit? And then I heard about- Erica: Well it is Cleveland. Kenrya: Fuck you bitch. Erica: Why wouldn't they? I mean y'all make a lot of chili, right? Kenrya: No, bitch we don't eat chili. Erica: Oh that's Cincinnati, my bad. Kenrya: Yes. You done mixed up the Cs in Ohio. Erica: Same difference, but okay. Kenrya: Not the same, whatever. It's like 5.5 hours away. Whatever. That's not for me. But one thing that we always say on this show is that we never yuck anyone's yum. Erica: Yuck anyone's yum. So if you like it, that's good. Kenrya: I mean, we want to hear about it, honestly. Erica: Yeah, if that's what you do... Side note. Y'all will get lots of my granny stories. So my granny told me about... first we were talking about Donald Trump. And she told me how she's convinced that- Kenrya: Did you really just say his name? Erica: I'm sorry. 45. She told me that she's convinced that 45 has piss tapes. Why? Because she said she talked to a real-life ho. And that real-life ho told her that these men take them out and they give them all this food. They give them this rich, good food and feed them and get them good and drunk and take them back to hotels and pay the hos to piss on them and shit on them. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: My granny told me this. So first, it's Granny. Two, it was a real live whore. Kenrya: So we trust whores. Erica: So this story is just gold-certified. That is exactly what happens. FYI. Kenrya: You don't even go ask the homey in Google. Now you know. Erica: Now you know. Granny and a real live whore. She was like, "She went to whore school. Certified, stamped whore." So my story about anal. Erica: Okay so first time I tried it I was on vacation. I mean I'd been wanting to do it for a while. So first time on vacation with this guy and I was on my period. I think I was a little yeasty. This nigga didn't- Kenrya: You needed another hole. Erica: He flew me out and my mouth was tired and shit. And so I was like, well- Kenrya: Might as well. Erica: ... might as well. Kenrya: Get the lube. Erica: Jaws getting tired. Might as well try a little something something. And it was... I'm not super experienced, but every time I've tried it thus far, you just got to have willpower. Kenrya: And lube. Erica: Yes. Kenrya: The right kind of lube. Silicone-based. Erica: Silicone-based lube. You need something thick. Kenrya: Do not water in it. Spit ain't it. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Ooh, because he just used spit in the story and that's like nigga that's not enough. Erica: I was like this is definitely poetic license. So we will do a whole... I feel like we need to talk about... I research everything. So we need to talk about different lubes and what's better for what and that kind of thing. But for anal, you need something thick. You need something silicone-based. And also, when you're doing it up the butt, you done committed. This is like us with this podcast. We done committed to go on the record as lifelong hos. Kenrya: It's fine. Erica: When you do anal, you just got to commit. Unless we taking showers and wiping shit off... I mean you need to wipe shit off. You need to commit to we just doing anal tonight. Don't be thinking you going to swap it in and out of places. Because that makes a very angry- Kenrya: I swap, but we go, well no, you got to go- Erica: ... very angry coo pappy. Kenrya: You got to go wash the whole situation before you reenter. Erica: Yes, yes. Kenrya: So you got to plan for a break. Erica: Or start vaginally then go anal. Kenrya: Yes, absolutely. Erica: Anyway. So we had been on vacation and mouth got tired. I was like, let me give this nigga something else to you know. He flew a bitch out. Kenrya: He flewed you out? Erica: I got flewed out. Tosses hair. So we are at it and the first couple... It hurt like hell. So when you doing it, you got to push down like you trying to poop out. You got to be very comfortable with your body and where you are. Don't try to do it after y'all went to the Melting Pot. Kenrya: Yeah, you don't want to be gassy and shit. That's not. Erica: No big fondue dates before you do this. Kenrya: Yeah, you push out like you're trying to poop, it opens the hole so they can get in. Erica: And then it just kind of... like in the story. Just something, bam, something happens. Kenrya: I think the head has to get all the way in first. I feel like once that's in, it's a little easier to get the rest in. It's like a ring of fire. Erica: I feel like someone that's really experienced with this is listening to it, laughing at us. Kenrya: Bitch, I just open it up and we go. Yeah, but it takes time. Erica: But it's a very rewarding experience. Kenrya: It is. So I'll say for me, although my first experience was shitty, the second time- Erica: No pun intended. Kenrya: Ah, you smart bitch. The second time I wanted it. I was with someone who I actually really liked. And it was a medium dick. But in the best way. Erica: So you were telling me about a little vibrator or something? Kenrya: Two things. One, it helped because he really knew what he was doing. So his first thing was he needed to have me cum first vaginally. So first we fucked and I came- Erica: Everything loose and gushy. Kenrya: Exactly. So we did that. And then, I have this vibrator that's like a little egg but it's on a stick almost. So it's a G-spot stimulator. So we put that in and pushed it up against the front wall. So now, you getting vibration and all the stuff going from the inside and then he came in from the outside. Yes, there was a little ring of fire situation, but because it wasn't huge, once we got past that, shit was amazing. Erica: So I have a little butt plug. It's a little vibrating butt plug- Kenrya: Oh yeah, I got one of those too. Erica: ... It's not huge. But that has been helpful in kind of... You need to be... Like I said, I research everything. I have steps for everything. Sex, especially anal play, is not... Get the steps in mind, get it down. But it really needs to be an organic process. Just feel things out. It's helpful when everything is just loose. So sometime, its very helpful. I mean like yes. If you're anything like me, do your research, read, all that. But once you got it in your head, just kind of let it go. Kenrya: So the third person that I have had anal with was... That's a big dick. And it took us three tries... maybe four tries. By the last time, we kind of had a system. So we used an anal plug first. Once we got that all the way in there, things are kind of opened up. And then he was able to come in... We took it out. And he was able- Erica: It's like when you're feeding a baby. Take the pacifier out, shove the titty in their mouth. Kenrya: That's literally what we had to do. So we were able to get 75% of the dick in, and we was at 50% the time before that. So that primed the situation and got everything a little more open and then once we got in, it was good. Erica: A delight. Kenrya: So we really had to kind of do it in stages. Erica: You're like, "Well, tonight is 75% night." Kenrya: Literally, we worked... because it's something that I like and it's something that he likes and because we had great communication, we were able to figure out our little plan. Erica: Communication is so key. Kenrya: Our little sexy plan. Erica: I say this all the time. Especially to guys I'm fucking. I'm like, "Look, if you are able to put your face in my pussy, the least you can do is be able to talk to me about your wants and needs. Now this is Erica you're talking to, so I may not give a fuck about your wants, but-" Kenrya: But at least you're able to say it. Erica: Yeah. It's important. It's so important to just communicate with the person you're having sex with. People be like, "I don't want to say that to him." Kenrya: Well you don’t want to fuck that nigga. Erica: But didnt you just have your face on his dick? Like make that work! Kenrya: But that was my first time with anal. And this is our first episode of The Turn On podcast. Erica: I'm doing a youthful dance. Kenrya: She is. Erica: The one where they throw the hand in the air, but it doesn't look right. Kenrya: That's not a real, yeah. Erica: Anyway. Kenrya: That's fine. Erica: You don't even know. Kenrya: I don't, to be honest. Erica: So it could be. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: Anyway. Welcome, thank you for joining us. Kenrya: Thank you for joining us. Erica: This has been the first episode of The Turn On with your lovely host Erica. Kenrya: And Kenrya, that's my name. Erica: Killer Ken. Kenrya: That is also my name. Erica: So welcome, thank you for joining us and we will see you again soon. Kenrya: Until next time, we are two hos, making it clap. Erica: Making it clap. Kenrya: This is ridiculous. Erica: This episode was produced by your lovely hosts, Erica and Kenrya and edited by B'lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. Now listen. Every five star review posted on Apple Podcasts between now and July 31st 2019 will be entered into a raffle to win a copy of one of the five books we read on the show. We are giving away five books. Just post your review and email a screenshot to theturnonpodcast@gmail.com to enter. And please, subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app, follow us on Twitter @theturnonpod, and Instagram @theturnonpodcast and find links to books, transcripts, guest info, and other fun stuff at theturnonpodcast.com. Erica: Bye.
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Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES The Turn On is a podcast for Black people who want to get off. To open their minds. To learn. To be part of a community. To show that we love and have sex too, and it doesn’t have to be political or scandalous or dirty. Unless we want it to be. Join us each week as we read a sexy piece of Black erotica, chop it up with the mind behind the literature, give y’all way too much information about our sex lives, and share some tips and tricks you might want to incorporate the next time you get it in. Your hosts are Erica and Kenrya, curious, hilarious, direct, Black best friends who love to have sex and read about sex and learn about sex, and would rather give up our vibrators than yuck someone else’s yum. We’ll explore all facets of sexuality, from kink to masturbation to sex work to having orgasms while disabled. Our lens for the show is “sex and…,” because we know that sex is never just about sex. Every time you tune in, we'll turn you on and teach you something you can use to get off. The first episode of The Turn On debuts July 10. Subscribe now so you don't miss a word. Learn more (and find a transcription of this episode) at TheTurnOnPodcast.com. TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Hi, it's Kenrya and Erica, hosts of the new podcast, The Turn On. It's a show for Black people who want to get off. To open their minds. To learn. To be part of a community. To show that we love and have sex, too, and it doesn’t have to be political or scandalous or dirty-- Erica: Unless we want it to be. Join us every week as we read Black erotica... Kenrya: A single crumb sits on his neat mustache. I want to lick it off. I want to grab his head and push it between my breasts and scream. I want them both to fuck me across the table. Erica: Then talk to the writer or editor... Feminista Jones: I had to reconcile enjoying being a bottom for like more of the physical things, like I identify as a sadomasochist so I do enjoy receiving pain, but that didn’t make me submissive. Erica: And give y’all way too much information about our own lives as they relate to the literature—and learn new things you might want to incorporate into your own sex life. I would fucking scream if I’m at work trying to meet with a client trying or do something work-like and the ghost of pussy past pop up-- Kenrya: And put his hand in your pussy! Erica: And... Kenrya: Find out more at TheTurnOnPodcast.com, and hit the subscribe button so you can join us every Wednesday and get off. |
The Turn On
The Turn On is a podcast for Black people who want to get off. To open their mines. To learn. To be part of a community. To show that we love and fuck too, and it doesn't have to be political or scandalous or dirty. Unless we want it to be. Archives
August 2019
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