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On Episode 7 of The Turn On, we read from Talia Hibbert's "Bad for the Boss" and extol the joys of dry humping.
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Kenrya: Come here, get off.
Erica: Welcome to this week's episode of the Turn On. Today, we're going to read from “Bad For The Boss,” by Talia Hibbert, which was published in 2017. Sit back, relax, get your wine, get your weed, get you whatever you need and enjoy.
Kenrya: “Bad For The Boss,” by Talia Hibbert.
"We need rules," she took a deep breath and his lips were so close to her that she could almost taste him, "Like no sex at work, no allowing the personal to interfere with the professional."
"I get it," he murmured. "You need guarantees, a safety net. I can give you that."
"Can you?" She didn't mean to say the next words out her mouth, didn't mean to, but was ultimately glad that she did. "I believe that you'd throw me under the bus to say the company's reputation." He drew back as though she'd slapped him.
"What? No, Jenny."
"It's okay, I understand it. You spent years building Brown Cow, and you've known me for days, that's just how things work."
"Jennifer," he bent over his voice low and insistent. "I wouldn't do that, not ever. I started this, I would never let you suffer because I want you. I leave women better off, not worse."
Kenrya: It took her a moment to realize, but she believed him, she did. She also thought he'd missed the point entirely, but that didn't matter, she was the one getting attached. Theo hid nothing about who he was, he'd offer her the world probably, just not himself, but she could have a taste, couldn't she? She deserved that, didn't she? Yes. Thanks to her heel, she didn't have to rise up on her toes to kiss him. She simply tipped her head back and raised her lips to his until the breath between them became a whisper. His hands tightened around her waist as he brushed his lips over hers and traced the tender inside of her lip with his tongue. She whimpered and he groaned in response, pulling her closer, clutching at her hips and dragging her against his body. She was so drunk with desire, she barely noticed as he gathered her skirt in his fist, dragging up the fabrics to expose her bare legs to the cool air.
Kenrya: But when his fingers skimmed along the edge of her thong, she gasped against his lips. "Let me touch you, Jenny," he whispered. "I need it, I need ... He broke off his voice ragged, his hands desperate as they sent stars shooting up her nerve endings.
"Yes," she gasped. "Please." With a moan, he kissed her again hard and punishing. His fingers slid beneath the fabric of her underwear to stroke the melting heat of her pussy, parting her swollen folds. She shuddered around him as he eased his finger inside her, rubbing rhythmically against the spots so sensitive she felt almost delirious with pleasure.
"That's it," he murmured as she whimpered in his arms. "You want more, Princess?"
"Please," she said again. He slid another finger into her dripping entrance, then curved his palm over her mound, so that the heel of his hand nudged against her clit with each thrust. Jen clutched at his shoulders, her knees weakening while he worked her mercilessly.
"There we go. Anyone could see you down there, you know, grinding all over my hand. You're such a good girl, Jenny, but you're bad from me, aren't you?"
"Yes," she gasped mindlessly, her heart pounding as she writhed against him. "Yes. More. Please." He pumped harder, faster, his forceful movements pushing her closer and closer so that perfect precipice.
And then she was gone, falling, soaring. He pressed hot kisses against her neck as his pace slowed, stroking her gently and easing her down from the height of her ecstasy. "Oh Christ," she says softly as reality filtered in. "Wait, aren't there cameras in here?"
"Shh, I took care of that. Don't worry." Her panic faded.
"Oh, thank God"
"... or me." With a devilish smile, he replaced her thong and let her skirt fall. Then, holding her gaze, he slipped his fingers into his mouth and sucked them clean.
Biting her lip, Jen looked down at the erection, clearly straining against his suit trousers. "Do you want me to?"
"It's okay." He smiled, but his eyes were still hot, grazing her skin like a caress. "We'll do that another time."
"Do what?" She stammered, and he laughed. "Oh, Jenny, you're so sweet." He pulled her into his arms, kissed her forehead, then her nose. "Come on. You want some truffles?"
Jen paused, thinking about the collection of condoms currently sitting in her purse. Then she thought about one of Aria's many rules; “Don't put in any effort for at least the first five orgasms.”
“You know what?” she asked, moving back toward the center of the capsule. "I think I do."
Erica: Welcome back. We just heard an excerpt from “Bad For The Boss, “which was written by Talia Hibbert in 2017. This story is an excerpt from a larger book. The book, “Bad For The Boss” is an Asian male, Black woman romance. Jen is the main character, Theo is her lover. The story starts with Jen in the beginning, experiencing some trauma as a kid, and then it fast forwards to her as a young adult working in a advertising firm in London, and she gets involved with her boss Theo. So, it's about their story and as Kenrya would say, hijinx and lots of sex ensues. So, what are your thoughts about this story, Kenrya? Overall, you like it?
Kenrya: I do. We wanted to do an interracial romance because it's a thing that if anyone who reads within the romance genre, it's a big thing, but we did not want to do one with a white man.
Erica: Yeah. And one of the great things about this story that I like is that she's a Black woman, her lover is an Asian man, but it's not "a thing." Like you know he's an Asian guy, I think the first time you learn that he's an Asian guy is he's pushing through a crowd, and knocks someone and they're like, "Hey, that Asian guy kicked it over." Something like ... but it's not like a--
Kenrya: It's not a fetish, It's not--
Erica: Yeah, it's not like she walked into his home and smelled green tea, saw ... you know like none--
Kenrya: Shoes lined up by the door.
Erica: Exactly. It's not that, it's just there are two people and there might be some descriptors, and there is a little ... what's the word for a little story?
Kenrya: A vignette?
Erica: Not a vignette, oh my gosh. Anecdote about him, why he uses this name versus that name, but it's not like a thing.
Kenrya: Okay. I'm going to start calling anecdotes little stories.
Erica: Little stories, little baby stories, little stories. So, we open this scene with her saying that they need a contract or they got to set rules because she's--
Kenrya: ... fucking her boss.
Erica: Yeah, she's in a vulnerable position. Have you ever been in a situation where you've--
Kenrya: Like a power dynamic?
Erica: Well, not even a power dynamic, but where you said to this person, "Look, we can do this, but we have to have rules and we ... Because, I mean, I think we all have rules in our head, but it has to be--
Kenrya: ... articulated.
Erica: ... articulated like that with a partner?
Kenrya: Kind of. I mean, but it was definitely on some, we're going to be friends with benefits, so it was like outlining, what are the parameters of that? Where does the friendship end and the sex begin? How do we jump back into the friendship when we're done with it?
Erica: Yeah, I think I've had a situation that was like that, and we had a TCOH policy, a take care of home policy.
Kenrya: What's that? Explain.
Erica: That's a policy where it was just home, meaning our lives and we weren't ... That makes it seem like we were married fucking around. No, it was just, things could get messy if this becomes more than just the two of us fucking, so let's make sure that we are--
Kenrya: Protecting our other--
Erica: ... making this sexual relationship, where it's just sex and we ain't talking to each other's home boys, home girls--
Kenrya: Don't be messy.
Erica: Yeah, like let's just take care of everything outside of this.
Kenrya: Okay, how did that work out?
Erica: It worked out. I mean, I think we just kind of ... you know what, I think he ended up getting serious about someone, and so in our take care of home policy, all right, well, you go do your thing and--
Kenrya: Have fun.
Erica: Yeah. I mean, it was actually a good situation.
Kenrya: Yeah, all right.
Erica: It was a good situation. Also, one of the things that I liked ... well, actually I hated this. How he kept calling her Jenny, and she was like "No. Nigga, it's Jennifer."
Erica: And he was just insistent on being like, "No, but you're my Jenny."
Kenrya: And on one hand, it's like oh, pet name, on the other, she's like, "That's not my name." That's not my name, that's not my name. That is how my daughter used to sing that song.
Erica: Oh my gosh. I had to laugh because I'm that type of person, like I will give you a name that no one else calls you because I need you to remember, if you ever in a big ass room and you hear somebody say, so—and—so, it is me.
Kenrya: Well, it's one of the ways that we build intimacy. Yeah, without even consciously realizing that that's what we're doing when we give each other nicknames. And I think that that's what he's trying to do with her, to take it out of the realm of, you are my employee, and in that space, you are Jennifer, and in this space where we are fucking or not fucking, and you are Jenny.
Erica: Yeah, because it's one of those like ... My current partner, he hates it when I call him baby, because he's like--
Kenrya: I'm a grown ass man.
Erica: I'm not your baby, your son is your baby, so—and—so can be your baby. I'm not your baby. And I'm like, "Oh."
Kenrya: It make you feel a way?
Erica: In my pants.
Kenrya: Why does ... oh, okay.
Erica: Well, the first time he said, he was like, "Nah, Nah, Nah, save that baby shit for somebody else." And it kind of turned me on because I was like, "Oh, okay. I like it. I like it." Do you have a nickname for your partner? You don't have to share it, but--
Kenrya: No, I'm not. Kind of, yes, but it's like a joke. And he a little bit hates it, but thinks it's funny.
Erica: I have a coworker who ... I'm going to tell my story, but I have a coworker who has a husband and she calls him ... say his name is James, she calls him Derrick. It's a whole different name. And she calls him that, so much so, she was like "at our bridal shower, you know they ask, do you know the grooms full name?" And they were like, "Yeah, James Derrick Jones." And they were like, "No, nothing to do with Derrick." Because like, "Why the fuck she call him Derrick?" It's like, I don't know. I find that so funny, but yeah ... I have a special name for my partner and it usually ... I mean, I use it often, but it gets syrupy and sappy when I'm asking for some shit or about to get some dick. And I actually like it, I mean, I'm queen of nicknames. I give everybody a nickname. I give everyone a nickname, but I also respect that people don't quite, I'm like, "Is it okay if I call you lil duderbop?"
Kenrya: Well, good. How do you feel when people give you nicknames? Does your partner have something that he calls you?
Erica: Yes, and I love it. It makes me sweet.
Kenrya: Right, because you feel a little bit rubbed the wrong way when he called her Jenny in the books, so I'm like--
Erica: Well, I thought it rubbed the wrong way when she was like, no, and he was just like, but I'm going to do it anyway, and it's just like--
Kenrya: Nigga, respect.
Erica: Yeah, boundaries.
Erica: And she keeps it going, and if y'all like it, I love it.
Kenrya: Her decision to make.
Erica: So, to the nasty part.
Kenrya: It's always the nasty part.
Erica: To the nasty part. I love that they don't ... there's no penetration. Well, there was no dick in puss sex, D in P.
Kenrya: Right, because he does penetrate with his fingers.
Erica: Yeah. When I read this, this reminded me of ... I was listening to Dan Savages' Savage Love podcast, and he was answering a question from a listener or something, and someone asked, "How do you feel about ... It was something about foreplay or sex or something like that. And he was telling this woman that men and women should ... well, heterosexual couples should embrace sex more like gay couples. And this is what he said, I don't have any experience or any other knowledge other than his anecdote. But he was saying that gay couples, sex is not just sex, it's mutual masturbation or just a bunch of oral sex. And he said, I think men will be less hesitant to have sex all the time if every time they had sex resulted in them getting fucked.
Kenrya: Somebody having to put something in them every time.
Erica: And so, I really like that this is a good sexual experience for the both of them, but it doesn't involve D in P. Dick in Puss.
Kenrya: Yeah. And also, I mean, yes, one thinking about the fact that in some situations there is no dick to be found and not everyone is interested in introducing an artificial one in order to get off. And also, for folks who have disabilities that don't allow them to be able to have penetrative sex, well Shit, they have ways that they get off too. And we can't always be focused on that. In my experience, I have found that men tend to be more focused on the penetrative aspect of it. Like to me, it is all sex. I actually don't tend to use the phrasing of foreplay because to me, it's oral sex, its titty says, this ... all of it is sex to me, even if it's a 15 minute session of you just laying here, lazily rubbing my clit. To me, we are still engaged in an intimate sexual act, and it doesn't even have to result in somebody coming necessarily. It is just us enjoying each other in that way, and to me that is sex. It does not have to culminate in somebody getting penetrated.
Erica: I mean I feel like we ... can we just have just a 15 second praise break for dry humping? It was like--
Kenrya: In high school it was everything.
Erica: Yeah. It was like we completely, as soon as we started doing D in P--
Kenrya: We just forget this thing that first got us off.
Erica: Totally forgot about our good friend dry humping, that got us through many situations. This used to be your home boy, now you just--
Kenrya: Toss that nigga to the side.
Erica: Damn homie, at high school you was the man, homie.
Kenrya: We shady.
Erica: Y'all just totally left your homeboy dry humping alone in the dust.
Kenrya: But it can be really great, especially in public places.
Erica: Oh, girl. Yeah, yeah, okay. I'm trying to figure it out. What do I do now? Like you do all that and he'd be like, "You nasty."
Kenrya: And then you got something to think about for later.
Erica: Who raised you?
Kenrya: A little grind, inconspicuously.
Erica: And again, just going back to it all, I think that there's so much to be said for everything else other than just ... because let's be real, we've been running stats on our Twitter and on our social media accounts about how not every woman cums vaginally--
Kenrya: Especially when they're having sex with men.
Erica: Especially when they're having sex with men.
Kenrya: Yeah, women who have sex with women, and non—binary folks and folks who don't have penises tend to cum much more often.
Erica: Because ...
Kenrya: They are not relying on a penis.
Erica: Exactly. And so, we forget that there is so much more fun in just--
Kenrya: Enjoying your body in ways that don't always involve the inside.
Erica: We don't have to take our clothes off.
Erica: ... to have a good time. Didn't one of our friends enjoy this song? I hear this song and I think about our friend that we were group texting this morning.... Does she have a story about this song? Okay, yeah. I hear that song and I can't remember this story, but I feel like there's always a random story associated with her.
Kenrya: Yes, she does.
Erica: Nonetheless, I think we just need to care. I just think we just need to remember that it's so much more than just ... and now that I think about the stories that we're reading, there's so much more about it, about just leading up to dick and puss, than it is actual. Because there's only so much, I mean, a good dick in puss is one thing, but I think that there's--
Kenrya: There's more to it than that.
Erica: Because also, your entire body responds to sensual touch.
Erica: ... more than just your vaginal canal. And let's be honest, a whole lot of men can't find your G—spot and that's really what you're going for when we're doing dick in puss penetration.
Kenrya: A lot of them are not even thinking about the fact that that's a thing--
Kenrya: ...let alone how they need to position themselves to hit it.
Erica: So I, for one, when I run for president, the first thing ... when I become president, the first thing that I am going to do is mandate more dry humping and fingering.
Kenrya: Yes, sure. Fingering has become something that I have enjoyed more as an older person, I think, because I know what they should be reaching for instead of do they. I hated it.
Erica: As a kid? Well, not ... let me not say that.
Kenrya: I hated it as a--
Erica: Newbie in the sex game.
Kenrya: Yes. It just felt like you don't know what you're doing, this friction doesn't feel good, that's not where I wanted. Ah, that angle was bad, you up against my pubic bone. Hey, how bout you take your hands out of there?
Erica: Yeah. So, I started watching “Euphoria” last night--
Kenrya: It's so good.
Erica: I couldn't even get through the whole fucking episode.
Kenrya: It took me two tries to get through the first episode.
Erica: It's really tough especially as a parent watching it. And one of the things that I realized watching this, they don't know what the fuck they doing. Don't nobody know what the fuck they're doing when it comes to their bodies or how sex works. Remember the scene with the kid and he was having sex with the girl, and he grabbed her by the throat?
Erica: And it was just like, "Well, that's what they do in the porn."
Kenrya: And she was like, "Why would you think I would like that?"
Erica: Exactly. And it's like we're just out here just--
Kenrya: Just doing what we think--
Erica: Just learning shit bad.
Kenrya: But how do you learn it? Porn is ... well, I guess maybe you look for porn that's not shot by men, and--
Erica: What 17—year—old is looking ethical porn?
Kenrya: Exactly. I mean, that's a tough one. I mean, I thought for--
Erica: It was definitely trial and error for me.
Kenrya: That's what I was about to say, that is how I came to know many things.
Erica: Trial and error, and then getting to a point where I was open enough to ask and seek answers.
Kenrya: Well, and also not accept bullshit. I think that's the other side of that coin. To be like, I don't like that shit, stop doing that shit.
Erica: Yeah. But I mean, shit, I'm damn there 40 and just now I got to that point, just now got to that point. It was hard to watch as a parent, but also just thinking back of when I was younger. I mean, I don't think I was that young doing this stuff ... maybe I was. Yeah, I was. But anyway, just thinking back, you're just so unsure and unknowing and just ... I always say, you don't even know what you don't know. You don't even know what you don't even know. And that's what it is with sex, these kid's like, oh my God, y'all are trash, this is horrible.
Kenrya: But unfortunately, I think that's not just the thing with kids. I definitely made trash ass decisions and in my 20s and--
Erica: Shit, even the 30s.
Kenrya: Yeah. I mean, yes, absolutely matter of fact, in my 30s where it was situations that I should not have been in with people who I should have walked away from right away. Luckily, it only took me one time to know that the fire was hot and walk away. But absolutely, it's a journey. Yeah.
Erica: Yeah. And I think that this goes back to the conversation we had in another episode, we were talking about just trying to be parents. I mean, I don't need my kid coming to me asking me about the intricate details of sex, but at the same time, I rather you do ask me than ask some kid, or God forbid, Porn Hub. I mean, yes, Porn Hub is a friend, you might find it in my favorites. However, that's not where I need you to go learning things.
Kenrya: Yeah, it's difficult. I want to go back a little bit to something where we were talking about earlier, about the idea of sex not just being penetrative, and how you were saying that even with these books, the excerpt that we've been reading, there's a lot that comes before that and I think that's important for us to note. I think that when folks hear erotica, there is one thing that they think of, right? I want us to like make sure that we're bringing the full--
Kenrya: Yeah. The tease that comes before it.
Erica: The tease is the best part.
Kenrya: Yeah. The conversations that you have, the shit that you talk on text, the things that you don't say, but that you're thinking, that you're planning for next time, like the touch that is not sexual but is intimate and puts you in concert with each other before you get to that point. All of that is erotica, and as we're going through the course of the show, we'll be highlighting those parts too. It won't always be that somebody is necessarily having some type of "sex" because the erotic is larger than that.
Erica: So much larger. Sex and, sex and--
Kenrya: Sex and, sex and, exactly. Always.
Erica: Speaking of intimacy, at the end, after she cums, he puts her panties back on her and licks his finger. He licks her dead in the eye. Licks his fingers clean.
Kenrya: My God.
Erica: I was like, oh, he's setting this shit up for later.
Kenrya: Yeah. When I was reading it, I had to take a little breath.
Erica: I was like, oh, okay, he talking shit.
Kenrya: Yes, without saying a word. The erotic.
Erica: That erotic, that erotic. Oh, it was so great. Also, I learned a new rule in here that was just fantastic.
Erica: Don't put any effort for the first five orgasms.
Kenrya: Don't subscribe to that. Why do you think it's fantastic though? I'm sorry--
Erica: I think it's fantastic because I think that women tend to want to ... first, let's remember, she's like 26--
Kenrya: And he's in his 40s?
Erica: Yeah, he's 40. It takes me back to that article that we shared earlier this week where it's like why high performing women--
Kenrya: ... end up with toxic men.
Erica: ... end up with toxic men, because we're so used to working for everything that if we have to work for what should be easy--
Kenrya: It feels like we're--
Erica: We're like, it's going to pay off. Like if I'm working for this man's love, then I'm earning something great. So, I shouldn't have to lay there and fucking play with myself in order to cum with you, and this is our first time--
Kenrya: I dig that.
Erica: ... you still should be pulling all the stops. I don't take it as like a, I need to be a lazy lover at all.
Kenrya: Okay, yeah, because because I'm not enjoying that. I want to be an active participant because that's what helps get me off.
Erica: Yeah, I think it's a, we should be ... Again, it should be a dance--
Kenrya: Yeah, but no extraordinary measures.
Erica: Yeah, it shouldn't be, you finish and then I'm laying there like, what's going on? It should not have to be work.
Kenrya: They were not doing this again.
Erica: It should be, we're enjoying ourselves, and then next thing you know, orgasm man taps me on ... the ghost of a good orgasm taps me on the shoulder, inhabits my body, and I started shaking like a goat.
Kenrya: Do goats shake?
Erica: No, their legs lock and they fall out, and that is what happens at times. And so, I think I really liked that idea ... No, I don't think you should be just a stale lover, because if you ain't working, we ain't getting to five. But I also don't think that this needs to be a chore or something that you have to work at. We should be enjoying ourselves and an orgasm comes.
Kenrya: Because paying attention to each other's rhythms and asking questions and following up and doing what they've just asked you, whether it's just that they guided your hand to a certain place or whatever, that's not work. That's part of the dance.
Kenrya: Got you.
Erica: Exactly. I'm like, who grandma told her that?
Kenrya: I like this.
Erica: I definitely do, I definitely do.
Kenrya: I have a question for you. Have you ever experienced where somebody just early on where they just came and were like, time to go?
Erica: Yeah, we didn't make it past ... I mean, I think I might've stuck around for one or two thinking that I needed to work. "He had so much fun, I got to be having fun next time," but no. Yeah, I have, and it just feels you leave ... I mean, I don't like the concept of like, as a woman having sex, you're giving a piece of yourself to a man. No, I'm having sex and enjoying it.
Kenrya: Look at my fucking face.
Erica: But I do feel like having sex with someone that just worries about them and not you, definitely left me feeling empty. Like, what was that?
Kenrya: Like you were just a hole.
Erica: Yeah, like you are using me as an orifice to masturbate in. And that's the empty feeling that comes from sex. It's like you could have did this with anything--
Kenrya: You could just do this with your fucking hand.
Erica: ... a good fleshlight. Yeah, I have and was not ... And again, it's good for young girls to know this, because I was more willing to go for that shit than I am now.
Kenrya: If he starts out that way and the time when he should be pulling out all the stops, that ain't getting better.
Erica: If this ain't gravy good in the beginning, what the fuck is it going to be like when y'all both come home after working a 10 hour day tired as hell, barely want to talk?
Kenrya: And that's not to say you it has to be like mind blowing the first time, because you're still trying to learn each other's bodies, but I need to see some effort.
Erica: I need to see it feel like we at least--
Kenrya: Trying to--
Erica: Working to learn each other's rhythm. What about you?
Kenrya: I don't know, I don't think I have, but I have at once put myself in that position a little bit where I was having literally the most awkward sex I have ever had was someone, and ... It wasn't that he wasn't trying to ... he didn't care about how I felt in the situation, but he just did not know what to do, and he was an awkward person to begin with. We had these awkward conversations, but he was fine as fuck.
Erica: I was about to say, how the fuck did y'all get to there and he was just awkward?
Kenrya: He was gorgeous, his thighs ... He was gorgeous.
Erica: Something about a good man thigh.
Kenrya: Oh Lord.
Erica: That's why we love ... What's the man's name?
Kenrya: I don't know.
Erica: M'Baku. What's the man's name?
Kenrya: Now I'm just seeing thighs and hearing, "We will not have it, O."
Erica: Anyway, we love a good meaty, girthy thigh.
Kenrya: It was the thighs that got me, and the conversation was okay, but he was awkward, but he's super smart and I was like, let's just try it out, see how it would goes. And it was just as awkward as the--
Erica: Because it could go ... things could--
Kenrya: Sometimes he know how to talk with his body, because he don't know how to talk with his mouth, and that's fine. And he wasn't stupid, he was actually quite smart, he just--
Kenrya: Yes, and so the sex was awkward. And it literally got to the point, so the Kenrya of today would have been like, this isn't going to work, you should get up. The Kenrya of then, after a while, I would literally said "You should just finish." And so, he was like, "Really?" And I was like, "Yeah, I'm not going to cum, you should just finish." And so, he finished and then that was that.
Erica: Wow, wow. I'm so mad at that.
Kenrya: And he didn't want to leave my house because he thought it was good.
Erica: Oh now I remember this situation.
Kenrya: I really should have told him to stop and leave in hindsight.
Erica: Oh my God, I totally remember this. That is so funny.
Kenrya: Yeah, it was bad. Nice guy though.
Erica: So, in the story, the protagonist is 26, Jen is .... Jennifer is 26 and Theo is 40. You know I love old men.
Kenrya: I know. This is your steez.
Erica: What about you? Have you ever been in a— Did you say, I did crusties?
Kenrya: I did not, I said, this is your steez.
Erica: I thought you said you date crusties.
Kenrya: Oh my God, that's not nice, no.
Erica: I mean, shit.
Kenrya: I wouldn't say that ... you don't date crusty men, that wouldn't even be accurate.
Erica: It's not.
Kenrya: You like an old dick. I like, in my age, a younger dick. I have been with men who were older than me, no more than ... So, my thing is always, if you're closer to my daddy age than my age, then, gross. Get away from me, it's gross to me. Sorry y'all, it just, I'm not turned on by that. I think the most of an interval that I've ever done is maybe six years ... is that right? Pass, no, five, six ... I'm thinking back to my Bumble days when I had my--
Erica: Oh my gosh.
Kenrya: My range set, I think that the oldest I did was 45 and I think I was maybe 35, 36 when I got on bumble, something like that. And then I didn't go any younger than 34.
Erica: So, for Bumble, I set my range lower than my normal range, only because--
Kenrya: Because you were just looking for--
Erica: I like an older man, period. But I also feel a certain way about the men of the age that I like being on Bumble. Get your old ass off of Bumble. I would date a man, six years for me is like, he's my age. "Oh, he's my age."
Kenrya: I prefer my own age--
Erica: It's like 10 to 15 years older. I have no problem with a man 15 years older than me. However, if you're 15 years older than me, you're what? 55—ish?
Kenrya: Yeah, you're younger than that.
Erica: You're knocking on 55. If you're 55, I don't need you... There are probably some really nice 55 year olds on Tumblr. I haven't run into them--
Erica: On Tumbleweeds. No, there's probably some great 55 year olds on Bumble, but, go to Our Time, maybe I need an account on Our Time.
Kenrya: What's that?
Erica: A senior Bumble.
Erica: Yeah. And Christian mingle. That’s how TS Madison says it. I enjoy an older man.
Erica: I like gray hair, I like to feel like a young tenderoni. However, when I was doing Bumble thing, it definitely, it was my first time dating guys that were ... seriously dating guys that were my age. And I actually realized, this is pretty cool.
Kenrya: I know.
Erica: I'm like, this is pretty cool. We talk about like, you catch my reference when I'm talking about whatever. Now, I find this absolutely hilarious now because the guy that I'm dating now, he is my age, but we grew up so differently that even--
Kenrya: He still don't get you.
Erica: He be like, huh? I mean, that completely ... but we were still on two different planets.
Kenrya: I think that's why I like the same age too. I like the, if you hear cash money taken over for the '99 and 2000, you too, they're like, you need to get to the dance floor.
Erica: Yeah, and for me, it's like, my guy is typically know "this is Erica shit, let me get out the way, let me move my walker out the way." I mean, I have realized that there is some fun to be had in someone that catches on, because I am queen of random obscure references in a conversation.
Kenrya: That's true. That's not a bad thing, its true.
Erica: I'm like, huh, maybe this is a good situation. Also, I like a man to take care of me. Like I want you to be generally established and take care of me, and so I think that older men tend to get that. But I will say that the older we get, the older men, they get it. So now--
Kenrya: They've gotten to the age where they get it.
Erica: ... where they get it, and it's not like some ... damn, you want cheese too?
Kenrya: Exactly. I like same age, and I hadn't been with a lot of men who were younger, but I like young dick, and not young, young, just a few years younger, because what is starting to happen in this 38 range, is that we know some men is having some issues.
Erica: Here's the thing, I like to fuck, I like having sex. I don't have to have lots of sex, when I do, it is, oh, we're going to have to clean these walls.
Kenrya: Right, but so you like that it's not ...
Erica: You're in the, let's have it three times a day stage.
Kenrya: Yeah, and a 20 minute refractory period.
Erica: Yeah, and I'm in a, "Well, we did it yesterday morning. It's like that, what do you want out of me? Was it Boosie? What do you want out of me?" That's me.
Kenrya: So, a little bit older works well for that.
Erica: Yeah, because I mean, we have good, good fun, hot sex. It's more quality than quantity. I mean, not to say you don't get quality but--
Kenrya: I like penetrative one point in a day and a non-penetrative situation at another point in a day. So, I get two and I get the full complement of the situation.
Erica: Yeah. I like a nigga be complaining about it.
Kenrya: You feel like did something. That nigga say his heart hurt.
Erica: And you know, my knee is going bad and shit, so I need to do a half a drop and make the nigga feel like I am making beats, like, "Did you see that bitch? She bent down, and picked up that panty."
Kenrya: We definitely have lots of con ... "Your knees okay? Do we need to" ... this bitch is falling apart. But it's all me, he like, "Let's get it." And I'm like, "Hold on, I need to move my knees."
Erica: Oh my God, no, that's definitely my kind of sex. Like I said, when we do it, it's trifling, but it takes a minute for us to .... it takes a minute for us to recover.
Kenrya: And that's good, it means that y'all are in the same space in terms of how much you want, which is key. I mean, it's also a good conversation. Like we had a conversation early on and we actually continue to have it to make sure we still on the same page. Like, how often is optimal for you to have sex? I think is actually a really important conversation because a lot of folks and a lot of marriages fail from people who come in and don't realize that they got completely different clocks in terms of how often they think is often enough. And if you don't have that conversation and are not honest about what it is that you need, somebody is always going to be feeling like they not getting what they need. And you know what they say, sex and money are the two major things that people get divorced over. You're setting yourself up if you don't have a honest conversation about what you want and how often you want it.
Erica: One thing just generally going into ... I was talking to a friend going into marriage, we'd go into this, I love you, you love me, we're just going to--
Kenrya: We'll make it work, love is enough, it's all we need.
Erica: Naw, Dog. You can't love yourself through red flags. All righty. Well, with that said, that wraps up this episode of The Turn On. These are your lovely hosts, Erica and Killa Kenrya, two hosts making it clap.
Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme song's from Brazy. We want to hear from y'all, send your book recommendations and all your burning sex and related questions that you want us to answer at email@example.com, and please subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app. Follow us on Twitter @theturnonpod, and Instagram at @theturnonpodcast, and find links to books, transcripts, guest info, and other fun stuff at theturnonpodcast.com. Bye.
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In Episode 6.5 of The Turn On, we talk to therapist Quinn Gee-Edwards about hoteps, narcissism and the importance of having a firm foundation before you date.
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Kenrya: Come here. Get Off.
Kenrya: So today we're talking to Quinn Gee-Edwards. Quinn is the owner of Magnolia Mental Health and founder of Hey Black Girl. Quinn is a licensed psychotherapist and specializes in codependency trauma and minority related issues including those that impact women, members of the LGTBQ community and people of color. Hey, Quinn.
Quinn: Hey, how are y'all?
Kenrya: We are lovely.
Erica: Doing well, thank you.
Kenrya: Yes. And glad to have you here. But before we dive into our questions, what are your pronouns?
Quinn: My pronouns are she and her.
Kenrya: Awesome Okay, we're both she and her as well.
Erica: So Quinn, we read your official bio, but we like to push folks to sum up what they do in regular ass words, so what would you say it is that you do?
Quinn: So basically, I get paid to be nosy. That's genuinely my favorite way to describe what I do. But I essentially like listen to people's issues, problems and things that they're celebrating. And kind of give them feedback or maybe better ways to handle it, different outlooks about things and maybe some coping skills about how to process going forward.
Kenrya: I love that she said things that they may be celebrating-
Erica: I was just about to say that.
Kenrya: ... Yeah, I don't really think about that. And when it comes to therapy, because I feel I spend most of my sessions. Like bemoaning the fucking state of the world.
Quinn: Yeah, I always have to remind people, "Yeah, bad shit don't just happen to you. It's not cloud or rain everyday, sometimes you have peaks of sunshine." And so, clients usually forget that they can come in and talk about the things that they did well as well as the stuff that sucks, but I do have some clients that do that.
Erica: And as you progress, hopefully there are more things to celebrate than.
Erica: Sucky rain clouds so.
Kenrya: Yes quick little commercial for therapy.
Erica: Yes. And we may get very clear on this show that we find therapy to be very beneficial. We look at our therapist as a superhero and all superheroes have an origin story. So what is your therapist origin story? How did you come to do this work?
Quinn: So originally I wanted to be a international psychologist and focus on, victims of sex trafficking and work with the FBI around that, under my mentor who is Jane Goodall's mentee. So, good stock, who's cool by the way. She's really cool. So I--
Kenrya: Is she Black?
Quinn: Jane Goodall, white as hell.
Kenrya: No, I know. She, Oh, I thought you were talking about your mentor.
Quinn: No, she's white woman too, but she don't want to be. But in the good way. You know how some white people be like, I wish I was Black. Oh I wish I could.
Kenrya: I wish I could renounce it.
Quinn: Yes, though she doesn't do that. She was like, yeah, you know, being white cool. Cause I get to call attention to the shit that, you know, white people be fucking up with, so I liked it.
Kenrya: I'm saying she uses her privilege properly. I like it.
Quinn: Exactly. So I originally wanted to do that, but I ended up, getting divorced in college and it really impacted kind of my professional trajectory as well, cause I went and got counseling myself, and I really liked it. It was a more direct way to approach the issues that I was having. And I thought, I like this, so I want to do more direct work with people. So I just switch gears and just did therapy instead.
Kenrya: I wonder how many folks come to be therapists from going to therapy?
Quinn: I would hope a lot, but, as I have recently learned in many of the therapist Facebook groups I mean, therapists are stupid too and some of them don't have their own having gone through their own shit and processing. I think that should be a requirement for our degree. But I was fortunate enough to work, in a clinical environment starting off, that required me to do my own counseling. And so I understand what it's like to be on the other side of... now be clear it sucked. It totally sucked. These are the people who told me that it was in my head that, I was experiencing microaggressions--
Erica: Oh wow.
Quinn: But I am glad that they made me go to counseling.
Erica: Well, I'd probably talk to you a lot, to put yourself in the shoes of your clients.
Kenrya: Yeah. And speaks to like the necessity of culturally competent therapy, right? Like the idea going and telling a white person, all my business is repelling to me. But like I think that some people, they live in places where they may feel like they don't have a choice or whatever. But even just the idea that even if you have to go to someone who may not match your experiences, that you are still looking for someone who can in some way if not relate to what you're going through, not fucking tell you that its all in your head.
Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Quinn: Exactly. And that's kind of one of the reasons why I made sure that I specialize in populations that don't really see themselves on the other side of the couch. And you know, working at that clinic, I am grateful for the things they taught me. They also taught me about what microaggressions are. 'Cause I don't, I'm not sure, you know, a little back in the day, about four five years ago, back in the day of, Girbaud jeans in the South. But, which was literally five years ago. But it really taught me before I really had this larger sense of what microaggressions were. Like I was experiencing them in real time. And so later on when I look back and I have the language for that, I can help clients who experienced those things, navigate through them. And I'm sad that I went through that pain, but I also think that that made me the kind of therapist I am. And unbeknownst to them, it helped shape, you know, like my perspective of like this is the populations that I really want to work with, the people that I really see need this. And it felt good.
Kenrya: All right. So I mean you just said that, that feels good. I'm wondering like what is the thing that you like most about what you do on a day to day basis?
Quinn: Being right, and doing right. Like... I'm literally like, I don't know when this will premier, but I'm literally getting out of a day full of sessions, right? And I've been right all day. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's just after like six hours, you tired of being right your damn self... I just, I think that's my favorite part of my job is just that gratification, right? Like see bitch you be knowing stuff. And part of that is because I have this like imposter syndrome that like I'm not the right kind of therapist. I'm always so scared that I'm fucking up somebody's life or that I am just saying the wrong thing or I'm sweating. Oh God, Like they're distracted, they're not even listening to me. And so being able to come into a session after I've had those, insecure thoughts and hear a client really say back to me, "Hey, you know all that shit you told me to do, you was right. This is how it worked." It kinda helps like calm that voice in my head. But also I really do like helping people and again, I am nosy. I like knowing shit.
Kenrya: I mean that imposter syndrome shit is real. And I... like, I never really like, I know that it is something that women deal with right? And I know that it's something that women of color in particular deal with. Like I was talking to my partner and like he was asking how I was feeling about some new projects that I have, and I was like, "Yeah, I mean I feel good. But I'm also like trying to remind myself that I'm great and that I can do this and I'm not a fraud, and I'm not going to get in there and they're going to be like, what the fuck are you doing? I was like, you know, imposter syndrome." He was like, "What is that?" He was like, "I have never felt like that." And I was like, "Cause you got a dick." You have never been-You identify as a man. You've never been made to feel that way.
Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Quinn: Yeah. And I mean, as much as even when we shield Black men, we shield ourselves with degrees and accomplishments, it doesn't go away, because that was one of the ways that I built, I thought I was building protection against my insecurity, right? Was to create this Spartan like, barrier between me and this force that my anxiety was just so loudly speaking through that you don't belong here. You're not like... you're not like the rest of the therapists, so there's something wrong with you. And I hear it every day, and some days it's louder than other days, but instead of just like building up this force but making it bigger and bigger and all that pressure behind that shield, busting through and causing me harm, I learned how to just like, you know, do it the 300 way, the battle of Thermopylae. Sorry, I really love Greek mythology. And just follow that shit through, like just find a way to beat my anxiety at its own game.
Kenrya: Wait, is that the one where they was kicking people into the pit?
Erica: They kicked one person into the pit, Ken. Oh my God.
Quinn: Yes, exactly one person, and it was the black guy by the way, but they kicked him yes.
Kenrya: You know I don’t know history.
Quinn: That's not history, that's a movie.
Erica: That ain't even history. Its a movie.
Kenrya: In my mind in the movie it was a whole bunch of niggas getting kicked into a pit.
Quinn: Yes, true.
Erica: It was literally one nigga and the only nigga into a pit and yes.
Kenrya: I just see red capes.
Quinn: That is one of my favorite movies--
Kenrya: Is it?
Quinn: That is one of my all time favorite movies, I love that movie. I yell that shit all the time. Like what I was problematic, right before I would get into a fight, I'd be like, "this is Sparta". In my head like, and I would just charge like literally whenever I'm on some stupid shit, I yelled. This is Sparta first and--
Erica: I was about to say now, is this really only when you were problematic, because I feel like you probably have "this is Sparta" moments. Like you probably had one at Whole Foods this morning.
Kenrya: Right now.
Quinn: I don't shop there, that's one for the devil, but not before that. That food unseasoned, I don't believe in it so.
Kenrya: It just depends on the location.
Quinn: Sure. Okay. Yeah.
Erica: Well Quinn, what is the most, what would you find the most challenging thing about being a therapist and working with people? Well, no. The most challenging thing about being a therapist.
Quinn: Because have you met people like that?
Erica: I know, my bad.
Quinn: So like there is the fun like comical stuff like, if I feel like I got bad BO that day or Oh my God, when I think I have a booger in my nose, or my hair is so fucked up today. I just want to head in one of my sessions and just wrapped my fucking hair. Like I'm just like, look, I don't want you looking at this shit no more let's just wrap this up. And they just was like, "I appreciate your authenticity." like, one of my braids fell out in my session like two weeks ago. Like it's just be stupid shit that'd be happening or I have some milk and now I got a fart my whole session, but I got to not look like it, or my session running over and I got to pee, and my client wants me to walk them to the door.
Quinn: So I got to stand up with my knees together and told him my damn bladder, so I don't piss on myself if my session like, just Amelia Bedelia.
Kenrya: Being human.
Quinn: Yes. So that part is hard. But then also of course like when my clients are triggering me, right? That's called, like, well countertransference is when I'm projecting my shit on to them. But sometimes like I have some of the same experiences and issues that my clients have, and when they're in front of me talking about things and I'm also processing and stuck with, it is so hard. It is so hard to stay present. But that's also when I do my best work as a therapist because I feel responsible for counseling two people in that room. Now that ain't what I'm supposed to do. But I mean sometimes you can't help, I don't know what my clients are getting ready to say to me when they walked into the room, so I just roll with it and just let them know like, "Hey, I understand exactly what you're going through. Here's what I think you should do." And usually when I'm saying that, I'm talking to myself, that's also why I use we a lot in sessions with clients, because I'm often reinforcing some of these things as well internally.
Kenrya: Damn. I mean I think I never thought about it that way, because even, you know, when I'm like setting my boundaries around certain things that I can't talk to people about, a lot of times it is because it is triggering to me. Like when, like if a family member wants to call and dump all of their shit on me, right? Like a boundary that I've had to set is that I can't do that because it fucks with my own anxiety. I never thought about the fact that, that would impact the therapist on a day to day. I think in a way I do kind of think of y'all as superheroes. Like y'all got this like extra shield around y'all that other folks don't have, that lets you be able to do that work and walk out unscathed. But that's not realistic.
Quinn: No. And nobody thinks that therapist need trigger warnings. Like that's the interesting part. Like, so for instance, it's like, it don't even always be about difficult, traumatic stuff. Like, because I'm like, you know, super liberal, whatever. My clients might say something like, "I don't like how my bussy is feeling nowadays." And I'm just like, "Okay wait, I was not ready yet for that conversation, but I appreciate the candor or like, I thought we was going to talk about your mama shit." So, and sometimes I'm just, because it's so fun sometimes it's, I like so many of my clients that sometimes I try to manage like talking to them, like as like somebody that's a peer and understands what they're going through and is enjoying this conversation with them, but also like making sure that I keep it therapeutic. But then also there's the times like when I'm out and about, especially like when I was on Twitter and back home, people would recognize me and they would just walk up to me and just start telling me trauma shit. Like--
Kenrya: Oh shit.
Quinn: I mean Kroger in the bread aisle ’cause I was finna fry some and catfish and spaghetti.
Kenrya: Yes spaghetti.
Quinn: All right. See, this is the largest group of fish and spaghetti advocates I've ever been around. So I just wanted to take a moment and appreciate that for the culture.
Kenrya: Yes, everybody soak it in.
Quinn: But, yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Like the hot sauce in the bread. Yes. But no, I'm usually like in random places and someone will like, just decide that because I'm a therapist, they want to tell me something, when I'm getting my hair done, when I'm in the car, in a Uber, when I'm in a random party, when I'm meeting people, when I'm grocery shopping, like even like people would try to be my... people still try to literally be my friend to be, to get free therapy. Like I've had at least four people say that to me, in the past year and a half on social media via DMs. Like, you know, I would love to have a therapist as a friend cause I feel like you'd be my best friend, like here out. Like what?
Kenrya: These people have--
Quinn: You know.
Kenrya: ... no boundaries.
Quinn: Yes. And also we forget people are weird.
Quinn: So you know, like that's the hardest part it's just like, sometimes people forget that, I'm a regular person, you know.
Kenrya: Yeah. That's real shit. So we're gonna change gears a little bit, because you know we asked you to come on the show today because we read a book last week, "Let Me Free You" that features a self-described hotep. So for those who are listening who don't know, I'm going to read a short description of a hotep from the homie Damon Young over very smart brothers. And he first reminds us that hotep is an Egyptian word for peace. So we got that out of the way, like we know it means peace, but then he breaks down the way that we tend to use hoteps today. And he says for some signs that a person might be hotep look at the following, or look for the following. One, a steadfast belief in illogical conspiracy theories. Two an arrogant adherence to respectability politics. Three, sexism and homophobia that vacillate from thinly veiled to, "if being gay was natural, how come it ain't no any gay elephants?" Four unbowed and uncompromising support for any Black man accused of any wrongdoing. Even if said man's guilt is clear Lord. And five ashy ankles. It feels hella accurate.
Erica: And also I'd like to add that ashy part between your thumb and your index finger.
Kenrya: Thank God. So full disclosure. My shoes ashy right this moment, but--
Erica: Oh my God.
Kenrya: But I also was washing my dishes. So--
Quinn: Damn is mine? No.
Erica: You gotta keep lotion.
Kenrya: I mean, none of the other shit applies though. We good.
Kenrya: Okay. So while the male lead in the book, did his best to separate himself from what he even described as some of the worst things that are associated with being in a hotep. He made us think about some of the terrible men that we've encountered. And we happen to know Quinn, that you have a top notch hotep door. So what makes your alarms go off?
Quinn: So much, everything that Darnell said, of course. I would also add probably like either that area right before, like the bottom of your feet, like the ankle area, or like--
Kenrya: You like that tendon?
Quinn: The elbow.
Kenrya: The back of your tendon?
Quinn: Yeah. Like right there. Yes. That is it honey.
Kenrya: So they don't believe you are reaching down.
Kenrya: The white man...
Quinn: ... the white man.
Erica: The white man wants you to reach down.
Kenrya: But apparently they know because white people don't wash they legs so.
Quinn: But the white man wants you to bow to him. That's why he don't put lotion on his ankles. You see what I'm saying? Say woke, you know, please sleep. So that, I also think those curve fingernails—the ones that don't lift up, you know where it look like a... like no this aint. Like you got a one D finger, you know what I'm saying, no D whatever it is, like. It just flat [crosstalk 00:19:40]
Kenrya: Booty diggers. Call them booty diggers, cause you're just digging your booty without scratching yourself.
Quinn: Okay. Like those fingers were so gross. It's like he's a part of they... it's like a helmet for they finger.
Kenrya: Oh my God.
Quinn: But, if they got one of them ankh necklaces, or some kind of wood jewelry.
Erica: Pause for the cause. I have an ankh tramp stamp. I was young and wanted a tattoo and needed something that wasn't... I didn't want to get sweet and juicy on my back, so I was.
Kenrya: Bitch, did you think it was like deep.
Erica: I thought it was deep. I thought I was classy. Fuck all y'all.
Kenrya: Was you fucking with the hotep at the time?
Erica: No, this is part of what makes me a hotep magnet and now I'm mad.
Kenrya: Do cats see you out at festivals and get a glimpse of your ankh and they are like, "Ooh, that one."
Erica: Peace Queen. "I'm like, no, I'm really a bald-headed hoe, I really like bald headed hoe shit.
Kenrya: That's false advertising.
Erica: Yeah, it definitely is, it's like we wanted a queen. We got a hoe. I'm like, yup.
Quinn: That's it too. If they just always say like queen and what grand rising.
Kenrya: So, wait let's unpack grand rising because that's the last part of the story that we read. The couple wakes up and the dude says grand rising and then she say grand rising Neil, what does grand rising mean? What do we know collectively?
Kenrya: I don't, I'm assuming the sun rose.
Erica: I'm so mad.
Quinn: And it was grand. Someone thought that one morning. This is such a grand sun. Wake up grand sun stay woke that's where it came from.
Kenrya: Always center the man.
Quinn: I have no idea. But I mean I just, I think that that, and probably super creased clothes, maybe if they a Mason. Well I don't know, I'm thinking about that one lately. Might want to consider that.
Erica: Okay. Again, I feel attacked because I'm from the Midwest and we'd like to crease our pants. No longer do I do it, but it was a thing.
Quinn: Okay. yeah, that is, sure. I mean just general avoidance of equality for anyone except the Black man. Pork, you all know the hoteps, hate pork and they just, that's something I think that their might be they, if you're going to do a witch's circle, where you pour salt around, just put a bunch of pork chops in a fucking circle around you to repel these kind of niggas. Pork chops and lotion. I ankle lotion and maybe you all won't pull no goddamn hoteps no more. Just a nice little prayer circle.
Kenrya: I like it.
Erica: So why are hoteps dangerous? What like, for folks that are out here just trying to live, get a little dick, find a boo, why are they dangerous?
Quinn: I think that definitely if you're casually dating a hotep, you might be okay. Especially if you are a person going into it knowing, I'm just dick and free meals, pork free meals apparently. But that's it. That's all you're going to get from this nigga. If you go into it knowing he stupid knowing you can't take them nowhere. He going to tell you something bout anti vaccine.
Kenrya: Oh, God.
Quinn: Needles came from a white man. And ain't no gay elephants. Like lesbians don't exist at all. Like matriarch elephants couldn't be lesbians at all. All they do is live together for a long ass time walk around and do shit.
Kenrya: Raising their kids together.
Quinn: That's sound like a lesbian relationship to me, but fine. But if you are just casually dating a hotep, I think you're okay. As long as you keep your wits about you, you got some good friends, some good people to mirror back to you. Like, "Hey, this ain't it. I hope we're just having fun." But the problem is hoteps usually got real good dick. And so if you the type of person that get easily dickmatized you might be in trouble. You might--
Kenrya: Wait. It feels like you've had some personal experience with hoteps.
Quinn: Yeah, you know what? I am so grateful to only have dated a couple of hoteps in my youth. When I was under 18 so, you didn't have a word for it. You just knew this nigga was stupid.
Quinn: Like how you misspelling shit on Bebo. I don't know if you all remember Bebo. That was like, back in [crosstalk 00:24:40].
Quinn: That might've just been some Clarksdale, Mississippi shit. Somebody made a web page, nevermind. Edit that out. It was Mississippi's Facebook. But... So, but essentially I dated some niggas back then who were kind of like, just young and stupid. One of them was half Puerto Rican. So, he will talk to me stupid in Spanish and I just love it. He probably say, hace frio or something. The nigga was in Mississippi. He wants connected to his roots, but I don't know. But I mean, as an adult, I don't, I think my ex-husband was kind of a hotep, but it's hard to reflect his behavior and align it back as just a hotep. Because he's also was abusive, so I don't want to just label him as a hotep because he has this other dark thing to him. But we also have to really consider a lot of men who are hoteps. They're all this misogyny and internalized racism and homophobia. That's also really dark shit. And a lot of them are narcissists.
Kenrya: That's actually something we're going to ask you about.
Quinn: Oh, okay.
Kenrya: The overlap of because for me, a lot of the hoteps that I've encountered were narcissists as well. I also think, maybe it's important to take a minute and explain to our listeners what that is. Because I think we throw the term around a lot, it's just like how people call people sociopaths. But people don't really know what that means. So can you just take a second and back up and tell folks what a narcissist is?
Quinn: Yeah. And so you don't have to be a sociopath to be a narcissist. And also you don't have to have a personality. You don't have to be a narcissistic personality disorder to be narcissistic. But basically a narcissist is somebody that has, who they really are because of some kind of like childhood trauma or something like that. Something horrible at some point happened to them or disturbing or disruptive and they decided instead of confronting it and processing it and dealing with it like the rest of us, they was going to come up with a whole new sense of self and they won't see anything outside of that. And they want other people to engage with and or worship that false sense of self that they created.
Kenrya: Oh, shit. That feels very familiar. So, given that definition, does it make sense that I've seen so much overlap between hoteps and narcissist?
Quinn: No, I mean, because if we look at some of the stuff even that Damon just pointed out about the behavior of narcissism, I mean of hoteps it is an alignment. hoteps think that the man is the head of the family, the Black man specifically. And everything centers around him being King and women are subservient to him and all of this shit. And so that doesn't sound very different from a narcissist who just makes everything about them all the time. And who projects this confidence. And I am this fantastic man and really you ain't got shit and doing shit, but you just standing on the backs of these women and children or other people around you. And I just really also think that hoteps usually do a lot of gas-lighting, which narcissists also do. Warping your reality and making you feel like, well, is this really true? And also taking away your options from you by warping your reality making you think that nobody else will want you but them.
Kenrya: Right, isolating you.
Quinn: So therefore you got to do that. Yeah.
Erica: So why do you think we get swept up by them?
Quinn: Well, good dick. I mean--
Quinn: Let's just--
Kenrya: Put it out there.
Quinn: Keep a spade, put a spade--
Kenrya: But also there are also women who fall into this hotep trap, right? What do they call them on a Black lady--
Kenrya: Herteps. That's a thing too.
Quinn: Yeah. Well dick isn't gender specific, by the way, you know.
Kenrya: I know, so--
Quinn: So you could be strapping it up but--
Kenrya: Real shit.
Quinn: I do think that definitely, if we're talking about the context of people other than me and then our hoteps, they still believe in that hierarchy and that structure of relationships. So they still contribute to these harmful ways in any possible way. And the goal is, I don't want to be the bottom of the totem pole so am always find someone lower than me. So, for hoteps it's--
Kenrya: I'm sorry y'all, I'm going to say one thing. I always try to do things in the moment. So using the term totem pole is actually derogatory.
Quinn: Oh. You are right.
Kenrya: Yeah. So let's use a ladder or just hierarchy or whatever. So yeah, but they want to climb to the top of the ladder. Right? They want to be at the top of the hierarchy.
Quinn: Exactly. And they also want to make sure that they have someone to look down upon. So for herteps you usually see, especially Black women of a certain demographic, like an age group, you usually see that antagonism that Black men have towards Black women with black women is usually against trans persons and the LGBTQ community and--
Kenrya: Somebody who they perceive to be lower on the hierarchy than they are.
Quinn: Exactly. Unmarried women, young mothers, people like this who just reject very specific structures and hierarchies that they have believed in.
Kenrya: So what can folks do to disentangle themselves from these hoteps?
Quinn: I mean obviously phone a friend, if you feel like you get too dick whipped or ass whipped should I say. And I think that it's really important for you to have a really good, when you can, right? We're not talking about relationships where you're 17, 18 and you're developing who you are. But if you have a very solid sense of who you are before you go into a relationship with a person like this, it will be really easy for you to not have your core shaken so much up by them. You know what I'm saying? With earthquakes, they put the damn poles deep in the ground, and so even when the earth moves the foundation doesn't have to. And I think it's important for you if you're going to be dating as an adult person to just at least go into relationships where you know who you are because you're going to be constantly tested by hoteps or herteps or just regular people about shit you think you already know about you. And if you already are protected and well grounded, you'll be all right. And you'll know that this person's full of shit. Now if you like most of us who don't have the core sense of self before you start dating, you learn on the way, right? So having friends reflect things back to you. But you have to be honest and we have to eliminate the shame of fucking up in relationships. So you have to be honest with your friendship circle. Also be honest with, if you have a therapist or a pastor or someone you're close to that you can download some of this stuff about. Lean into them and just be able to say like, this is what's going on with my person and when shit is abnormal, they will tell you. I've been thinking this story was normal, my whole fucking twenties and, thirties well, I'm only 31, but 20 and 30. But I have tell people that one of my exes who was a hotep who is a doctor here in the DMV area actually. I met him through his girlfriend which, I was fucking his girlfriend and then I got him. So I mean.
Quinn: I mean, so I got hooked up with him and I remember thinking he was a doctor so he knew everything he was talking about, right? And so I'll never forget after he was telling me something about how women should talk to men and his mom always bent her knee to his father when he came into the house after a long day, it's shit like that. I'll never forget, I was talking to people about just a random story and I was like, yeah, he put some hand sanitizer on his dick instead of taking a bath.
Kenrya: What? My God.
Quinn: I will never forget this, about two months ago I just found out that wasn't normal. I'm sitting there laughing at this story with my wife about another part of the story and my wife is sitting there looking at my friend's face and I'm moved on and they all laughing and I'm like, damn, this is a good story I'm telling. They all said, "That's not normal. What are you talking about? How did you skip that?" And your friends, if you're honest with your friends about what's going on, they will call it out. Whether it's comical or not, that doesn't matter. But I have people in my life where I can reflect these experiences back to, and they can give me some feedback about it. But that didn't happen if I wasn't willing to be vulnerable.
Kenrya: Which is tough. Right? Especially because we're taught that that's a weakness.
Quinn: Yeah, we're conditioned to think that we have to be strong.
Kenrya: Right, absolutely. So for folks who are like us, well, I'll speak for myself, I turn to books for solutions and plans all the time, I'm a nerd. Do you have any book recommendations for folks who may need some help with dealing with the issues that may arise either from dealing with somebody like this or to give them a grounding to be able to disentangle themselves?
Quinn: Absolutely. My favorite books to prescribed to clients are "The Body Keeps The Score" and "Facing Co-dependence." So, Body Keeps The Score is mostly centered around physical trauma and the disconnect between your brain and body when these things happen to you. And how your body responds in one way, your brain responds in another and it's really good to see people really understand these two things don't always work in tandem. And sometimes my body is telling me this isn't a good relationship. Why am I in this relationship? Your body is always tired and crying. Well, you're always crying and you're sick or you can't get aroused as much as you used to because your body is trying to give you these clues. Your brain though will tell you this is the best relationship you've been in. He hasn't hit you. What's wrong with that? Is this relationship so bad. She isn't doing nothing as bad as your last partner. And so being able to show them the disconnect that your brain and your body will have and how to learn to understand your complete language that your body is giving you is really important.
Quinn: Facing Codependency is one of my favorite is because one, all my black women have resistance to that book. I have never prescribed that book to a black woman at this point. It's like 112 women that I prescribed this book to. Every single one of them gets angry. Every single one of them is like, this--
Kenrya: I mean the word codependency is scary.
Quinn: Yeah, especially because for us, we're conditioned to think that we're supposed to be hyper independent and that word codependent seems incongruent with what we think about ourselves. But without getting too much into that, being super independent is a form of codependency. So I'm just like, okay, sure.
Kenrya: Why are you so loud Quinn.
Quinn: All right, sure. Single independent woman don't need no man. I get it. I fuck with it. However, let's just talk about why. And that's where I always get the resistance. But those two books really give you a snapshot of your interpersonal relationships with the co-dependence one and also how you feel with the body Keeps the score one.
Kenrya: Oh, thank you.
Quinn: You're welcome.
Erica: So as we prepare to close, we'd like to ask you one final really tough question. It’s a would you rather, so would you rather be in a relationship with a hotep or in a relationship with a person, a Black person that swears they don't see color.
Quinn: Okay. So the kind of relationship, all that shit is the same, right? Short term, long term, whatever. It don't matter.
Quinn: Just would I rather spend my evening talking to somebody about how Bill Cosby tried to buy NBC or.
Kenrya: You know that happened to me for real.
Quinn: Somebody, It has happened to all of us. It happened to me talking to other therapists.
Kenrya: Oh, shit.
Quinn: So, yes. Never forget that. I thought that was just a Twitter thing until somebody said that shit to me in real life. I was like, you're too old to be stupid. They just are. You've been around long enough to read books.
Kenrya: We know that doesn't matter.
Quinn: Spend my day thinking about that. Or somebody that just, Ooh, probably tucks they shirt in real high, wear they pants real high. They probably wear--
Erica: Ugh armpits sweat stains on they pants.
Quinn: Ducks unlimited, them ducks, the mallards that be on them belts, they probably wear something like that, or wear they shades with a band or string rim. Oh my God, at least with a hotep I'm going to have a good time. I think I might, the food going to be seasoned and I'm not like, just think about somebody who don't see race, the food they eat, they probably drink milk. Oh my God. I just, Oh, that feels so boring. I would just be so disappointed to have missionary sex with the lights off, just to be in a relationship with this loser. So, no.
Kenrya: So you're going with a hotep.
Quinn: I would rather hertep, by the way.
Quinn: I'd rather deal with a stud with these problems. Nah, that'd be much worse. Let's... I'll go with a hotep. I'll go with a hotep man. I'll take that for 300. Probably how much money he going to owe me when we broke up.
Kenrya: Bitch, exactly. Yo, we're so glad that you've joined us today. Where can people find you?
Quinn: Yeah, you can find me on my social media, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook is @magnoliamheath. my website is magnoliamhealth.com. Also heybgirl.com. You can send me a Email all of my contact information is on my website and on my social media pages.
Kenrya: That's dope. Well, this wraps up this week's episode of The Turn On. Thanks you all for joining us. Peace.
Quinn: Thank you for having me.
Erica: Thank you.
Erica: This episode was produced by us, Erica and Kenrya and edited by B'.Lystic The theme song is from Brazy. First please leave a review in your favorite podcast listening app. For real we want to hear from you all. Send your book recommendations and all the burning sex and related questions you want us to answer to firstname.lastname@example.org. And please subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app. Follow us on Twitter at the @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram @TheturnOnPodcast and find links to books, transcripts, guest info, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com. Bye.
The Turn On
The Turn On is a podcast for Black people who want to get off. To open their mines. To learn. To be part of a community. To show that we love and fuck too, and it doesn't have to be political or scandalous or dirty. Unless we want it to be.