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In Episode 3 of The Turn On, we read "Luzette” by Darrell Dawsey, which appears in Carol Taylor's "Brown Sugar 4: Secret Desires." Then we reminisce about all the moments when we had no choice but to give into our own secret desires, location be damned.
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Kenrya: Come here, get off.
Erica: Welcome to The Turn On Podcast with your hosts Erica and Kenrya. This week we're reading from "Brown Sugar 4: Secret Desires," which was published in 2005. The short story we are reading is "Luzette," by writer Darrell Dawsey. We picked this one because it portrays a strong woman taking exactly what she wants. So, get yourself together, sit back, and enjoy.
Kenrya: Luzette, by Darrell Dawsey.
She was a sexy Latina with a mane of dark hair, eyes flashing like embers, 100 watt smile, body by StairMaster. Afro-Cuban, I guessed. She was a new assistant in my eye doctor's office. A welcome relief from the overweight assistant and the pimple faced receptionist who usually greeted me. From the moment I walked through the door I noticed her. All short, and compact, and fine, her lab coat fighting a losing battle to conceal her voluptuous frame. I tossed her a friendly nod, gave that gorgeous body a quick once over, and began moving slowly around the office.
I was feeling her, but I wasn't going to sweat her. It turned out I wouldn't have to. Her eyes never left me. Everywhere I walked in that office, from the front door to the glass display case, her stare was in hot pursuit. Occasionally, I shoot her a glance just to let her know a brother knew what was up, then look away. I didn't want her feeling too self-conscious. The way I figured is, she'd probably seen me in a movie, but was too shy to say anything. I get that a lot. Women will recognize me, but pretend not to because they don't want anyone to know that they watch that kind of stuff. Instead, they usually just stare.
Flattered, I held back a smile and turned my attention to a pair of Gucci frames resting in the plexiglass display case. Then I settled down a chair, filled out some paper work, and waited for them to call me to the counter for my checkup. The whole time I could feel her smokey eyes burning through my clothes. At one point during my visit she walked over, touched my arm, and asked if everything was okay. I grinned and nodded, then watched her as she turned her attention to adding new frames to the display case. And the second her eyes had met mine, I knew that my initial hunch was right.
The sense of familiarity was palpable. She recognized me, cool as she was, for a brief moment she had registered the look. Everyone in my line of work gets the look if they stay in it long enough. The look is a mixed bag of countenances. One expression boded over others. It's one part recognition, that wide eyed sense that, "Hey, I know you from somewhere." It's also one part realization when the person figures out exactly where they know your face from. The raised eyebrows tend to give this away.
Then of course, there are the responses. The knowing laughs, or the red-faced titters, the uncomfortable body shifts, or the sweaty palms. As much as I've seen the look, I still never know quite how to respond to it. Do I smile? Do I wave? Do I turn away? Maybe one day I'll just walk up, extend my hand, and say, "Hi, I'm a porn actor. Perhaps you've seen my work?" After 10 years and 1100 flicks, I'm not shy about what I do, and I'm damn sure not ashamed. I am weary though. I hate having to sidestep the steaming piles of assumptions people tend to toss in my way. I mean, if it isn't the voyeuristic husbands offering you $2,000 to lick butter off their wife's calves, it's the morality police accusing you of stealing their teenager's virtue.
People are entitled to their opinions about who I am, and what I do, but I prefer not to indulge them. I love the advantages my work presents, the parties, the cash, the sex. But for every perk, there's also a disadvantage. Whatever the case though, my carping didn't apply to this woman. In her I saw nothing but sheer carnal curiosity. There were no lewd jokes or autograph requests, no morality speeches or judgemental sneers. Just a fuck you stare that triggered chills along my spine.
I wasn't about to come on to her too strong. Sure, she may have seen me before, but she may not really have given a shit. I certainly didn't. I was more preoccupied with figuring out how I'd ask for her phone number when my checkup was done. The fat assistant called me for my exam. I got up, handed her some paperwork, then followed the dark-haired beauty to the back of the office. She ushered me into an examination room and gestured toward a plush swivel chair, "My name's Luzette." She said, as I settled into the seat.
She smiled, shook my hand, then began fussing with the eye exam machines. She then turned to me and then started tossing out the standard pre-exam questions. How was my sight? When was the last time I had my eyes checked? Blah, blah, blah. Even as I answer I could see her eyes narrowing, intensifying. Luzette fidgeted in her chair, her tongue swept quickly across glossed lips. She leaned closer, penlight in hand. Her neck smelled of perfume, her breath like mint. My dick stiffened instantly.
The exam proceeded routinely enough with me chatting and Luzette guiding me through a battery of tests. She told me a little about herself, when she started the eye doctor's office, what she was hoping to do when she finally left there. Not once did she let on that she might have seen me before. She was cordial, sweet even, but as the exam proceeded she became more professional. The intensity that I had felt from her earlier now seemed to have waned. Maybe Luzette wasn't feeling me after all, maybe I had just mistaken curiosity for lust.
"I'll be right back." She said as she stepped out of the room. I slumped in my seat, waiting for her to come back and send me home. I began to wonder if I had been wrong about her, about that look she had given me. Maybe she was just being nice, just keeping a customer happy. I'd already given up on seducing Luzette when I heard her heels clicking on the hallway floor outside the exam room. When she walked back into the room Luzette's expression had changed yet again. The fire had returned to her eyes. Her tongue was now working its way slowly across her top lip. The stare that had threatened to singe me when I had first strolled into the office, it was back; and this time it was more intense than ever. I smiled and stared back. My heartbeat picked up. My dick, which has softened, stirred again.
"So, you weren't going to tell me, were you?" Luzette said, closing and locking the door beyond you, "You just thought you were going to get out of here without me saying something, huh? I know who you are." I shrugged, "What was I supposed to say," I asked, "I don't just go around announcing that I fuck for a living. Not to say that I haven't been seriously considering that option lately."
Luzette chuckled and sat in the chair next to me. She studied my face for a second, then reached out and touched my beard, "Maybe not that, but you could have said something. You know? Because when I saw you, I kept asking myself if you were the guy in all those movies that my boyfriend has. I've seen you, I don't know how many times." I laughed softly and caressed her hand, which was still on my face. I move down her arm and began rubbing her shoulder.
I felt her stiffen, but she didn't withdraw, "Truthfully, I don't even like most of them men I see in those movies." She continued, her voice a smokey whisper. Her strong hands running over my head now, "Most porn is made with guys in mind, not women. It gets so bad I sometimes find myself getting off on the women right along with my boyfriend."
"How so?" I ask. She laughed again, "I mean, how can the guys who make those envision their ideal as some perky blonde with big tits, or some chocolate model with a heart-shaped ass, and then think we women are secretly pining away for some crystal meth addict, wearing nothing but two tattoos, a Budweiser belly, and his black dress socks? What the hell is all that about?" She leaned in closer, her minty breath wafting under my nose. Her hand had made its way from my head, down my shoulder, and over to my bicep.
"But it seems like things are getting a little better for us." She squeezed my arm admiringly. It took all my willpower to resist the childish urge to flex and tell her my gym schedule, but I kept quiet as she continued, "I've been watching you for about three, four years now, and you haven't disappointed me yet. All I can say is, 'Bravo.' Looks like somebody finally got the memo." My dick was rapidly turning to Quikrete. Her caresses were mostly to blame, but I was also turned on by her frankness and her aggressiveness. She wasn't intimidated or deterred by what I do, she wasn't even unduly curious; she just seemed appreciative, like what I did actually mattered in her life.
I smiled, struggling to conceal my pleasure. I wasn't doing anything, though, to hide my arousal. I casually leaned back so she could get a better view of the bulge in my pants, but her eyes never left mine, "So, do you always fuck like you do in those movies? Just going on, and on like that? Or is that just what you do when you're at work?"
"Nah. To tell you the truth, I'm never off the clock. Ever." She pursed her lips and nodded slowly. I was making progress. I reminded myself to move slowly, to just get the number. After that, I was certain I'd see her again. "So what makes you ask?" I continued, "Your boyfriend doesn't give it to you like you like it, or something? Is that why you're all up in his porn stash?"
I was surprised when she shook her head, "No, come on. That's too easy." She said, "I wouldn't be bothered if he couldn't satisfy me. It's not that he's a bad fuck or anything, but we've been together for six years now. And I just think we're... I don't know, comfortable with each other, I guess? It's good sex, but it's routine. We switch it up occasionally to keep things interesting, watch a few movies, try to learn new things. But he's familiar to me. I know him, how he feels, what he's thinking, what he wants to try. Sometimes I wonder what it must be like to just get fucked by somebody I hardly know, by someone I know will do what I want, how I want." She smiled, "I guess that's why I'm into porn. They represent an ideal scenario for me. No strings, no complications, just lots of fun and know-how. It's like getting tips from... I don't know, the pros, I guess." As she finished these last two words her gaze finally fell to my crotch.
By now, I wasn't saying much of anything. There are times when a man doesn't need words. When only his body should be speaking for him. And this was one of those times. I looked at Luzette, licked my lips, then pulled her closer to me. Phone number be damned, I wanted that pussy. Right then, right there. I stood up from my chair and pulled her up with me, wrapping her in my arms.
I leaned over and whispered in her ear, "So, what about the other people out in the office?" I asked, "Aren't they going to need this room for something? I don't want to get you in trouble." She shook her head, "The other assistant is out to lunch, and the receptionist never comes back here. Besides, there's another exam room. We've got this one to ourselves, unless you're scared of getting caught."
I hesitated for a second, unsure about her take on the circumstances. Of course, I didn't care if people saw me. I looked at her and figured, "Fuck it." With that, I slid my tongue into her mouth. Her own embrace tightened around my waist, and she ground her pelvis against my dick. We kissed, rubbing each other, and grinding our hips together. I moved my hands over her ass, squeezing gently, and pulling her hard against me as I nibbled her neck. I felt her right hand slide from my waist and down my stomach. Her fingers worked furiously to unfasten my belt and then the button on my blue jeans. I could feel her nails brushing past my pubic hair as she slipped her hand down my underwear.
She pulled my dick through the opening in my boxers and rubbed the head against her crotch, "Mm." Luzette moaned. Then she stepped back, squeezed my dick, and arched her eyebrows inquisitively. I looked back at her impassively and nodded. She moved toward me once more, kissing my neck, my chest, my stomach. She then slid down into a crouch and looked up at me. Her hand still working over my dick, her eyes pleading. I stroked her hair with one hand, put the other hand on my hip, then leaned back and closed my eyes as she took my dick in her warm mouth. She worked a dick like a pro as she deepthroated me. Every now and then she'd look up and tell me how good I tasted to her, and each time she did I just grabbed the back of her head, and shove her mouth back on my dick. Each time she'd jump back on it without delay. She must have sucked me for about 10 minutes before I slid out of her mouth. I took her hand and pulled her to her feet, then I started to unbutton her lab coat, "Don't worry about the coat." She said, "Take off my pants and fuck me."
I shook my head. I wasn't about to rush through this pussy. I was going to fuck Luzette right, "I want to see your titties." I demanded, "I want to suck them until your nipples get really hard. And then, I want to fuck your tits." I felt her chest heave, then just pulled back in the lab coat, fell to the floor, revealing her green blouse and form fitting pants. I could see that her nipples were already hard. When I pinched them with my thumb and forefinger she moaned and licked her lips.
After slipping off her shirt I took Luzette's hand and swung her lightly into the examining chair. I pulled a lever and the chair reclined. Straddling her and then cupping her titties around my dick, I began to pump. Slowly at first, thumbing her nipples with every stroke. She bent her head down and stuck her tongue out, trying to lick the head of my dick as it slid between her breasts. Finally, I stood Luzette up and turned her around. Kissing the nape of her neck I moved my hands over her breasts and down to her pants. I undid them and let them fall to the floor around her ankles. Pressing against her back, I slid my hand into her panties. They were soaking. Her pussy was dripping, the lips puffy, and covered with the same thick juices that were coating my hand.
She breathed hard as I slid my middle finger along the slit of her pussy. I made little circles around her clit and felt her wiggle her ass against my dick. Then I pulled the crotch of her panties to one side and bent her over the exam chair she'd been sitting in, "You want this dick?" I asked. Luzette didn't answer, just nodded furiously and ground harder against me. I stooped down until my face was level with her asshole and kissed her full cheeks, biting each slightly. I lapped at her asshole, then blew hard into it, "Mm." She groaned. I turned my face into her pussy and began tonguing the slit. I pressed the tip of my tongue against her clit and sucked gently. Normally, I don't fuck with a woman's asshole too much the first we have sex. Many women still don't like to consider their ass as a sexual organ, associating anal stimulation with pain. But Luzette seemed like she really wanted to get loose, so I slipped the tip of my middle finger into her anus and waited for the response.
Her reaction was to move her ass in little circles, urging me to finger fuck her harder. My fingers toy with her a bit more while my tongue was deep inside her pussy. By now, my mind was as engaged as my body. Every now and then Luzette would moan with sheer pleasure. I could barely contain myself as I thought about how she beautiful she was, how badly I wanted her when she first walked into the examination room. Now, here I was, my face between her shapely legs, bringing her to climax. When the anticipation overwhelmed me, I stood up. Luzette was still bent over, legs quivering, "Don't move." I commanded. I yanked her panties down to her knees, gripped my dick, and moved into her. As wet as she was, her pussy still made for a tight fit.
She sucked in her breath as I pushed, "Damn." She groaned, "Damn." I pushed harder. I felt my dick sliding deeper, and deeper, until my pelvis was slamming against her ass. Every stroke made her butt jiggle; she moaned and grunted as I made my dick probe her walls, moving my hips sharply from left to right as I pounded away. I moved faster, watching her ass jump with increasing quickness, enjoying the sound of my flesh slapping against hers. Luzette bent over farther, pushing her face into the seat of the chair to muffle her groans, which were growing louder. I slapped her ass hard for good measure.
Suddenly, I felt her legs start to shake and her ass buck. It was a struggle to stay on, but I managed to keep giving her the dick. Finally, she unleashed a moan that even a chair couldn't smother, her voice rising and surely falling out into the hallway. But I didn't care. I kept going, driven by the knowledge that I was inside her, that I made Luzette cum so hard. Moments later I felt myself on the verge of my own orgasm. My skin went cold and hot at the same time, and my muscles tightened. Luzette tossed me another of those looks and then smiled as I pulled out and then came on her ass. I shivered and spasm. I let loose a deep breath and stagger back against the door, my stomach glistening with our bodily fluids. I caught my breath after a few seconds as she adjusted her panties, pulled up her slacks, and put on her lab coat.
I follow suit, buckling my own pants and fixing my shirt, "So, when can I call you?" I ask, pulling her into an embrace. Luzette shook her head, reminding me that she was involved. I almost roared with laughter. Here I was chasing a number, trying not to be too forward, and all the time she just wanted to fuck, "But," Luzette added, "I'll see you next time you come in and get your eyes checked, right?"
"Damn straight you will." I said. She smiled broadly. Somehow, I knew we'd fuck again, but it would only be on her terms, on her time. I was a private passion, not one to be overindulged. She was writing the script, I just had to make sure not to flub my lines. Somehow, I knew I wouldn't. Then Luzette unlocked the door, and in her best professional detached voice told me I could finish up at the front counter, and let me half-stumble past her into the corridor. Luzette's pussy had been like a drug, and I was still buzzing. Hell, I was feeling so good I barely even noticed the receptionist and the fat assistant giggling at me from the examination room across the hall.
All right, welcome back. We just listened to "Luzette," by Darrell Dawsey, which appears in Brown Sugar 4: Secret Desires.
Erica: And that was a good one.
Kenrya: It was.
Erica: He did such a great job of just writing and explaining. Some of our stories are a little lighter, and this one is a little heavy handed.
Kenrya: It's a fun romp.
Erica: A little heavy handed.
Kenrya: I thought it was fun romp.
Erica: But not beating you over the head with it, it was done very well. This is one of my faves, primarily because it was unexpected. I didn't quite... I mean, I guess I knew that they were going to fuck, but that was just...
Kenrya: It was a possibility that it could have just been about the anticipation, and then the sex didn't happen.
Erica: Yeah. And this one was a good romp. Like you said. I know Luzette went home with a good story, and the fact that she had this guy, who's a sex worker, porn star, weak in the knees...
Erica: Was just... Oh.
Kenrya: Bad bitch.
Erica: Bad bitch. Go Luzette. I also found it interesting that this is written from the male point of view. But, I liked that Luzette was just, "This is what I want, and so we're going to take it." And didn't care much about trying to do this, "Oh, let's talk. Let's be friends." You know, like, "Let me follow up." No, she was like, "Thank you, I'll see you again."
Kenrya: "Thank you for your services. Appreciate you."
Erica: "Thank you. Come again." Yeah.
Kenrya: "Actually, that's going to be all."
Erica: Like, "So, what you about to do?"
Kenrya: "Because I'm about to go back to work."
Erica: Yeah, "I got to go back to work. What are you about to do?"
Kenrya: And I loved that her girls were out there listening.
Erica: Yes. Because you know, if you work in a small office, or whatever, y'all know everybody's business. And they were just probably out there giggling and laughing at this man.
Kenrya: I feel like when she walked out... Because, remember she walked out, and then she came back in? She was like, "I got him. Y'all going over here. It's fixing to go down."
Erica: "Don't let nobody come in here."
Erica: Stay out of that room.
Erica: Yeah. That was a good one. What are your thoughts?
Kenrya: I thought it was good. It was interesting, because while I was reading it, I was like, "Oh, this really is..." I was getting into it as I was reading it, like, "Oh, this is well written. It's kind of funny." I love that he has a sense of humor about himself; and while he's explaining that he does sex work, it was interesting to hear how he feels about that, and how that influences the way that he interacts with people. And not even just women, just people in general. I never thought about what it might be like to be a sex worker and then encounter people outside of that context, and how they might perceive you. And to hear it...
Kenrya: I think at some point we'll do that with women who do sex work on the show too, but to hear that from this man's perspective, I thought, was pretty interesting. I liked that he... Yeah, he talked about her body, but he, more so, talked about, like, he liked the way that she...
Erica: Tasted and felt.
Kenrya: Yeah, and even before the sex, that he liked her attitude and that she was cool.
Erica: And the way she responded.
Kenrya: Yeah, and I liked that, because I think that oftentimes, and it's, honestly, part of the reason why... I know, I love porn. But why, sometimes, erotica appeals to me over porn, in certain instances. Because so much of that... Men are super visual, although, I'm visual too. But, you know, with them it's all about the closeup of the pussy. You know what I mean?
Kenrya: So, that he wasn't just focused on her individual body parts, that he literally was talking about her, and viewing her as a whole person, even before he had even learned what her name was. That was sexy to me.
Erica: Yeah. And there is an element of flirting and foreplay that was taking place out in the lobby, I guess, of the reception area.
Kenrya: Yeah, when she was staring at him.
Erica: Yeah. And that is so sexy. I think one of the difficulties as a single woman, you're like... The flirting part is difficult, and awkward.
Erica: Flirting is always awkward. But the older you get...
Kenrya: I feel like it's not awkward for you, though, you're a huge fucking flirt.
Erica: I am a flirt, but I am a very overt flirt.
Erica: I don't do subtle flirt. I'm like, "Hey, how that beard feel?" You know.
Kenrya: I want y'all to understand that's literally something that she said to somebody, but it was a little bit more graphic than that.
Erica: It was definitely graphic.
Kenrya: It worked.
Erica: Yeah. And so, the idea of the flirting, the coy cat and mouse game that was going on, was such a turn on. And just a slow build to a very hot scene.
Kenrya: And that he picked up on it. I know for me, one of the ways that I flirt is that I make eye contact. I was trying to explain this to my friend the other day, I was like, "You know, I don't..." Because he was asking me what somebody was wearing, or some shit, and I was like, "I don't fucking know." And he was like, "What do you mean?" I was like, "As a woman walking around, I do not make eye contact with men, unless I already know them." Like on the street and shit. Because a lot of men take that as a fucking invitation. And he noticed it, but he noticed it as flirting, and he didn't immediately jump to, "Oh, I'm fixing to fuck her." And he wasn't gross about it, and I think a lot of times that's what happens.
Kenrya: I liked that it was kind of a realistic depiction of the way that a lot of women, who are not as comfortable and overt with it as you are, that's how we flirt. I sustain eye contact. That means something for me.
Erica: That's so funny that you say that. Because I have lots of eye contact with men, and it goes back to my, "Always trying to make sure some crazy shit ain't about to go down."
Kenrya: You mean just being a nigga, keeping your head on a swivel?
Erica: I check a man out. I need you to know that I see you, because in case some shit go down, nigga, I can identify you.
Kenrya: Oh my God.
Erica: It's so horrible.
Kenrya: It's not horrible.
Erica: And they'll probably see that and think, "Oh, she's checking me out."
Kenrya: "Oh, she's..." Yeah.
Erica: And I'm like, "No, you look a little weird, and if you're trying to put a bitch in a choke hold, I got a description for police."
Kenrya: Really? Bitch, what I have found is anytime, any fucking time, I make direct eye contact with a man that I don't know, he takes that shit as an invitation.
Erica: Yeah. But I do have men that walk up and try to talk, and sometimes I play, and sometimes I'm like, "No. I was looking at you to make sure that I can identify you. Get the fuck on." You know? So, yeah, I do have men approach me, and I think it's not necessarily... I mean, I am a bad bitch.
Kenrya: Yes, bitch.
Erica: But it's not because I'm some hot goddess.
Kenrya: Is it though?
Kenrya: It's because I look at a motherfucker in the eye.
Kenrya: Isn't it though?
Erica: Well it is. But I look at him in the eye, and they probably look at that as like, "Oh."
Kenrya: An invitation, yeah.
Erica: Because I say all the time, "What about me makes..." I have had some weird ass men approach me.
Kenrya: It's because you're making all that eye contact.
Erica: Yeah, and I'm like, "What about me says you can approach me?"
Kenrya: Mm, doofy nigga. Come talk.
Erica: Bitch, you looked a bitch in the eye.
Erica: You gave them the fucking bat signal.
Erica: I did not realize that.
Kenrya: Yes, yes.
Kenrya: That brings the niggas to the yard. Mind blown.
Erica: Mind blown.
Kenrya: It does, though. Yeah, so I am very pointed about it. I keep my eyes slightly averted because it seems to be a really strong signal for a lot of men.
Erica: Huh, okay.
Kenrya: Yeah, ain't that something? So, I liked that that was the way that she flirted, and that there was this kind of coy, "I see you. I see you see me, see you."
Erica: My shit would have been like, "So, yeah. In Booty Talk 89, you did this thing where you spun a bitch on your dick. You want to go back and try?"
Kenrya: Let's try that. We got some space in the back.
Erica: Yeah, sorry. Yeah, we've got some space. We can try it out here, he obviously ain't shy. No...
Kenrya: And so, that's what was really, I think, part of why we picked this episode, is that they had sex in an interesting place.
Erica: Yeah, the eye doctor.
Kenrya: An eye doctor's office, on the fucking exam table. Which is dope. Like, he said, "I pushed a lever and the thing..." I'm like, "Yes. You can have some fun with that."
Kenrya: I feel like they didn't have enough fun with that.
Erica: No, but they had some good fun.
Kenrya: Yeah. Well, because he could stand up straight. Well, no it probably don't go that high.
Erica: This bitch over here about to draw diagrams, and be like, "Well, if you invert your leg 30 degrees."
Kenrya: I was thinking about some things.
Erica: Oh my gosh.
Kenrya: It's fine, it's fine. So, that makes me wonder, what's the most interesting place where you've had any type of sex? So, it doesn't have to be full on penetration.
Erica: See, the problem is I can't really tell you without...
Kenrya: Incriminating yourself?
Kenrya: You don't have to say the city.
Erica: In an elected official's office.
Erica: Multiple times.
Erica: Without said elected official.
Kenrya: Right, just in their office while they were away.
Erica: Yeah. It doesn't even feel wild or strange, because that was my office-fucking spot.
Kenrya: Shut the fuck up.
Erica: Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to think if there was anything else interesting. Something else will probably come. I'm like Luzette, if I want it, I take it.
Kenrya: You take it. Yeah.
Erica: What about you?
Erica: Oh my gosh, if you don't say it I'm going to tell you.
Kenrya: Which one?
Kenrya: No, you share what you want.
Kenrya: I had sex in the botanical garden.
Kenrya: That was a lot of fun.
Erica: That's what I was thinking of.
Kenrya: Yeah, with those... And it was under the moonlight, with the breeze hitting my bare ass.
Erica: Something about doing things outdoors is fun. I love day drinking outside.
Kenrya: Day drinking, day fucking.
Erica: Yeah, outside?
Kenrya: Yeah. I think I have a bit of a voyeurism thing. The idea of it being so quiet. We could hear people walking by on the street, literally a foot away. And we over here fucking somewhere we're really not supposed to be.
Kenrya: That was hot as shit. Where else? I don't know how to say this without incriminating... Well, fuck it. I don't give a shit. In the capital building in Washington D.C., in various places. Various closets, and bathrooms, and observation rooms. Yeah. Places that y'all might have seen on television during hearings.
Erica: On a tour, on the capital tour.
Kenrya: Lots of that.
Erica: Yeah, you was fucking in there.
Kenrya: Oh yeah, lots of that. On lots of super old historical furniture.
Erica: Done lots of car sex.
Kenrya: Oh yeah, lots of car sex. Including out in the open, with people walking by. Lots of that.
Erica: Yeah. Lots of car sex.
Kenrya: Where else have I had sex that was interesting? Various bathrooms, and you know.
Kenrya: Because sometimes you just got to make it happen.
Erica: Movie theater.
Kenrya: Oh yeah. Did that during... Oh, college? Have I had sex in the movies since college? I don't think I have. Was yours recent?
Erica: No, it wasn't recent.
Erica: Yeah, I've gotten fingered in public.
Kenrya: Oh yeah, the club.
Erica: Oh shit
Erica: I literally had a flashback of like... We both looked at each other, I was like, "Did you just become my best friend?"
Erica: Yeah. So we went to this club years ago.
Kenrya: In Miami.
Erica: We were at this club, I meet this dude, and we're just... I don't even want to say we was vibing, because there was no conversation.
Kenrya: We were drunk, drunk.
Erica: We were drunk, feeling the music, you know, titties start sweating and shit. So, me and this dude find this elevator, and we're like, "Fine. We just going to go at it on this elevator."
Erica: So, we go and we get on this elevator, and we start kissing, he's finger fucking me, we're just getting it on. Bitch. The elevator goes two fucking floors. It was an elevator in a club that went from the first floor to the second floor, so we just kept going ding, ding, ding. And there was a bouncer upstairs, and every time the fucking doors would open, there I am, nigga's hand's in my pussy, my titty in my mouth, and he kind of looks. And then the seventh, eighth... This shit went on for a minute. After a while the bouncer was like, "Y'all got to get the fuck out." Come on.
Kenrya: I mean, he gave y'all a lot of leeway.
Erica: He gave us a lot of leeway, but he was like, "Look, I know y'all are tired of seeing me, because I'm tired of seeing y'all. Y'all got to go." Oh my god. It was so horrible.
Kenrya: Wait. So, while she's doing this, I'm out in the car getting my pussy ate. It was a lovely night.
Erica: Oh, to be young and reckless again.
Kenrya: Oh lord, yeah. That was fun times.
Erica: That was such a wild night.
Kenrya: It was.
Erica: Oh my god. Not that I totally forgot about it, but I totally forgot about it.
Kenrya: But that happened, yeah. That was a whole last weekend.
Erica: I think that was really... That was... Yeah.
Kenrya: Have you had sex on a beach? Didn't you do it on... Or was that one of our friends?
Erica: No, I left the beach to go. Because, sex on the beach is not cute.
Kenrya: It's not. No. You get sand in places where it's not supposed to be.
Erica: Sand is everywhere.
Kenrya: That shit hurts.
Erica: Don't nobody need no added friction. So, one of the things I liked about the story, this nigga ate ass.
Erica: In a good way.
Kenrya: Like, immediately. She didn't have to wait for it.
Kenrya: She was just like, "Let's go."
Erica: That was a good depiction of ass eating. Because... Yeah.
Kenrya: And I liked that he said, he was like, "Usually I wait, but she seemed like she was trying to get it in."
Erica: He wanted for her response. He tried it out.
Kenrya: Exactly. Exactly. And he was like... Something I think is true, that a lot of women associate any type of anal play with pain. And I'm like, "There's nerves there, that shit feels fantastic if you know what you're doing, and you relax." And we already talked about anal on the first episode.
Kenrya: Yes, we are both fans. But, some nice ass eating, or even just a finger.
Erica: Yeah, that was a good... Since we've got to do the ESPN analysis of their fucking, he played with it a lot before he went at it.
Kenrya: Yes, there was lots of foreplay. She sucked his dick for 10 minutes. He didn't say how long that he was down there, but it seemed like there was lots of changing of positions, and adding of the fingers, and that didn't happen within the course of a minute. And for her to be dripping by the time it was time to have sex, he had put in some actual work.
Erica: Yeah, yeah. That was a good one.
Kenrya: Which, I guess, goes back to him being a pro, and knowing that you're not just fixing to stick it in.
Erica: Yeah. Yeah.
Kenrya: That's just the benefit of stepping out with a pro. If you're going to do it, at least it's worth it.
Erica: Right? At least... Yeah. At least do it right. I wonder if porn stars... Because it's still acting, and because it's still a script, is there really...
Kenrya: He said he's never off the clock.
Erica: Oh. Yeah.
Kenrya: I feel like that was mostly a line, but can you separate? You've got to be able to, though.
Erica: I was down a Twitter hole, and this woman asked other sex workers, "How are you different as a sex worker? How are you different with a client versus in a relationship?" And interestingly enough, many of the sex workers said that they're more tame in relationships, than they are with clients. Because with clients, you know what you're there for. You get to get reckless, try out new things.
Kenrya: Right. And there's no judgment, I would imagine. Or at least no fear of judgment.
Erica: Exactly. But in a relationship it's more...
Kenrya: Let things unfold over time.
Erica: Yeah. Like how much does he want, you know. So, I think that's probably what made this situation so hot. She knows what she's getting, she knows what she wants.
Kenrya: She's been watching him fuck for four years.
Erica: He's like, "I'm going to give it to you."
Erica: You know, without, "Will he love me in the morning?"
Kenrya: None of the fucking preamble.
Erica: Without the Andre 3000, Where Are My Panties interlude.
Kenrya: Exactly. She had her shit on before he even pulled up his pants. I was like, "Yes bitch."
Erica: I love it.
Kenrya: Yeah. Yeah, I love that she just went after it, and that he gave it to her.
Kenrya: And understood his place. And when she made it clear, he said she just shook her head, and he was like, "Oh. Reminded me that she had a man already." I was like, "Yes, way to listen. Play your role."
Erica: I ain't trying to fuck up your home. Don't fuck up mine.
Erica: Just give me what I want.
Kenrya: Let it be.
Erica: I love it.
Kenrya: I thought it was dope.
Erica: One of the things that we noted about Luzette is that she's a woman that goes after what she wants. Have you had a situation with a man, a boo, a partner, where y'all was somewhere, and you was just like, "You know what? We've got things to do, and they need to happen right now." Which probably resulted in a strange-place-fucking.
Kenrya: Yeah, I'm kind of notorious for just saying it all the time, and I think it takes a special kind of person to fuck with me. I don't demure. There is a partner who I've been with, who, on our second date, I was just like, "So, I'd like to fuck you." And he laughed, and he was like, "Okay."
Erica: "All right, like now?"
Kenrya: Right? He did, he did, he was like, "Right now? This weekend?" He was really...
Erica: "Do I need to go home and cleanup?"
Kenrya: Yes. It took him a minute, he was a little taken aback. And then he laughed, and was just like, "Okay. We'll let's talk logistics." And I think they get over the initial shock of the bluntness once they realize I'm not thinking. If I want to have sex, I'm going to say it. And there have been some men who I think have...
Erica: They enjoy the chase, they want the chase.
Kenrya: Yeah, and they wanted, maybe, a softer touch. Like, "Oh, let me caress your head. Let me..."
Erica: Act like you don't want it. Like, no.
Kenrya: Yeah. I'm not going to do that, though. I do want it. I'm not going to pretend that I don't.
Erica: Unless we're in a scene.
Kenrya: Sure. If it's a scene, that's fine. But I want to have sex, and sometimes it's literally just me standing in front of you, and being like, "Okay, I want to have sex now. Let's do this."
Erica: Make it go up, do I need to put your dick in my mouth?
Kenrya: Yeah, that's fine. Let's go.
Kenrya: Yeah. In general, I find that they appreciate the directness. That they don't feel like they've got to dance around it. Like when you were in your 20s, where... God. I'm having vivid memories of niggas trying to tickle me, or trying to rub my back.
Erica: Or falling asleep, and then they dick in your back.
Kenrya: Yeah. I'm like, okay. I don't need the pretense, I don't need the preamble. We can just say what we want to do. And that's not dirty, unless you want it to be. Just like you could say, "Hey, let's do this." I can say, "Hey, let's do this." So yeah, I tend to. Sometimes that's how... We're in a car, at noon, on the side of the road, because your home is too far away and so is mine, and I want to do this right now. And so we do. And that is a thing.
Erica: Tips hat to you.
Kenrya: Thank you. Thank you. I have fun. What about you?
Erica: Yeah. When I drink, I get fluffy. I get real...
Kenrya: Loosey goosey.
Kenrya: When I drink I love everybody.
Kenrya: This is true.
Erica: My friends get so tired of me, because I am like the drunk bitch like, "Look at me."
Kenrya: She is.
Erica: "Look at me right now. I fucking love you, I would fucking kill for you, and your fucking dog, and your cousin. Because I fucking love you." That's me when I drink.
Kenrya: And you usually go to sleep for a little while.
Kenrya: And then you usually go to sleep for a while.
Erica: I fall asleep, and I wake back up, and I'm on.
Erica: But, yeah. If we're out drinking, I get a little frisky. If I'm with my boo I get frisky, and yes, we've got to do it. So, I have had lots of car sex, lots of head on the way home.
Kenrya: That's dangerous.
Erica: I know it is.
Kenrya: I mean, I've done it.
Erica: It's so wrong.
Kenrya: I always realize I'm taking my life into my mouth.
Erica: And it was like, "Damn. If I get into a car accident, they're going to have to tell my granny that I died with a dick in my mouth."
Kenrya: Your head was crushed between a dick and a steering wheel, bitch.
Erica: Yeah, that ain't right. That's the only reason that I be trying to not do it, but I do it still.
Kenrya: Yeah, you know. It's fine. So, how do you initiate it? Do you say it, like how I say it, do you grab dicks?
Erica: I grab a dick.
Erica: I definitely grab a dick and look them in the eye.
Kenrya: Here we are, here we are.
Erica: "Put this in my pussy."
Kenrya: Bitch. Just like that?
Erica: Yeah, "Put it in." No. But, yeah. I grab it, or I say, "Hey, let's fuck."
Kenrya: "Let me see your dick." Yeah.
Erica: I mean, I'm pretty overt about it. You know. Yeah, I am truly roleplaying when I'm on some, "I don't want to. Take it later." No, I'm generally... Especially if I'm feeling you, I'm generally always down. Especially if I'm on my period. Do you get horny as hell when you're on your period?
Kenrya: I'm always horny.
Kenrya: I'm always horny.
Erica: Oh my god, I'm like a fucking monster.
Kenrya: Toward the end I do see a little bit of an uptick, and it has resulted in not being able to wait. For sure. Put a towel down.
Erica: Yeah, that's what towels are for.
Kenrya: Yeah, there's a bit of an uptick. But my baseline is pretty high.
Erica: Yeah, when you're with somebody you're just like, "Let's do it."
Kenrya: Yeah. Yeah. I'm always kind of ready, unless I'm sleepy. The only thing that ever keeps me from having sex, honestly, is I be so fucking sleepy. Which is why I like day sex.
Erica: I have a friend that was like, "Look. Either I'm fucking, or we fucking. But I'm fucking."
Kenrya: Oh shit. I like it.
Erica: And I'm like, "This is so wrong, but I can respect it."
Kenrya: Yeah. I guess. No, I think that's part of why I'm partial to lunch sex. Because I'm fresh.
Erica: We're all awake.
Kenrya: Yeah. I'm not thinking about what time I've got to get up in the morning. So, I kind of hit a wall when I'm sleepy. It happened last night, where I go from being fine, and then I'm telling you I'm fine, but my eyes are really going in different directions. And there ain't too much I can do once I hit that wall. So, a lot of times I be trying to do it before...
Erica: It's coming, it's coming, it's coming, I see the sleep coming. Yeah.
Kenrya: Yeah. It ain't no, "Oh, let's get comfortable in the bed, and sit here, and talk." No nigga.
Erica: No. If you want this pussy...
Kenrya: Let's get to it. And then we can try to lie here, and talk, and I will probably fall asleep. But, in the morning, I'm going to be hype; and I'll probably suck your dick, so we'll be fine. But that's really the only thing that keeps me from partaking. I just be so tired. I'm busy as fuck, all the time.
Erica: Yeah. If I'm tired... I'm never too tired to fuck, because if I'm tired, I'm like, "This is going to be some good sleep."
Kenrya: That's a good way to look at it.
Erica: Like, "Oh, this sleep is going to be so good."
Kenrya: Yeah. I feel like I'll end up being on some lazy shit. Which is sometimes fine, to just lie there, and let your partner handle it.
Erica: Yeah. I'm sleepy, I'm tired.
Kenrya: You know this coming in.
Erica: You know this.
Kenrya: So you can make the decision.
Erica: So, you're going to get the fish.
Kenrya: Yeah. But I try not to do that, I feel bad. But yeah.
Erica: No, because you're going to get some lazy dick in a minute. So just give him some lazy pussy.
Kenrya: Have I ever got lazy dick?
Erica: You might not... Well, you know. I'm thinking about your current partnership.
Kenrya: Oh yeah. No, I ain't never got lazy dick in my current situation. Whew, Lord. I haven't gotten lazy dick, but there was someone who I was with, who you know well. So, I eventually broke up with him because he was a lazy person in general. But, I remember at one point he complained about giving me head, because he said it was too much work, and it made too much of a mess to clean up.
Erica: One, you've got to put in some work for this pussy. Two, the mess is a part of the fun.
Kenrya: It is part of the fun.
Erica: Oh my gosh.
Kenrya: Yeah. So, the Kenrya of 2019 would just never fuck that nigga again. But the Kenrya of, I don't know, that was...
Kenrya: Yeah, around that time, college. Was just like, "Bet. I'm not sucking your dick no more."
Kenrya: I never sucked his dick again, he only lasted a few more months after that.
Erica: Yeah, because it's like, how are you going to half-ass sex?
Kenrya: I was like, "Well then, we ain't go no reciprocity, then we can just literally do penis in vagina, I can get off, and then we can keep it moving."
Erica: Yeah, once that happened you might have slapped a time bomb on the side of that joint.
Kenrya: Yeah, it was just counting down. So, I kept up with that part of it, but there was no... And I'm really good at head. So, he was depriving himself of a fantastic time.
Erica: Yeah, because that's the thing. Sucking dick, that's when I get to show off. I put my hair in a ponytail, and I be like, "Look, let me show you what the fuck I can do."
Kenrya: Yes. That's why early relationship sex sucks. So, you know, I do the whole get tested, blah, blah, blah. I feel like one of the biggest tools in my fucking tool belt has been removed from me.
Erica: You're fighting with one hand.
Kenrya: Yeah. That's why I'm like, "Let's get tested so I can actually go to work."
Kenrya: And then I've had men who are like, "We'll we can just use a flavored condom." And I'm like, "First of all, that's too small. Second of all, you're not going to get the full effect." You can't feel the wetness. That's part of what makes it intense.
Erica: I'm a pro. I like gag, spit, all of that.
Kenrya: Absolutely. All of the things. And you're missing out on all of that if you have a condom on. It literally feels like I can't do all my tricks if I can't do that trick. I need to get some more tricks to the bags, maybe. I don't know. But that's my favorite trick.
Erica: That's like entry level trick.
Kenrya: And it's not even just, "Oh, okay, I get to show off." But I really enjoy it at this age.
Kenrya: It's fun, it gets me excited because I get to see how much pleasure I'm bringing. When you start squirming... Whew, god.
Kenrya: That's a turn on to me. So, I feel like not only are you missing out, but I'm missing out. So it's a really key thing for me. So yeah, I just deaded it. That's the only person I can think of that was ever lazy in sex in any way.
Erica: I've had a lot of lazy fuckers.
Kenrya: Yeah? Damn.
Kenrya: Well, hopefully you were more like the Kenrya of 2019, and said, "Fuck them niggas." And kept it moving.
Erica: Oh, I wasn't. But a bitch done learned and now...
Kenrya: Well, we learn, we grow. That's growth.
Erica: Growth. And now, it's like, "Look. Either we all sweating, and hot, and fucking..."
Kenrya: Or we aint. Ain't nobody.
Erica: We aint. Yeah.
Kenrya: Oh, lord.
Erica: All righty, so, on that note. We'll end it on the dick sucking note.
Kenrya: It's a good note.
Erica: It's a good note. Well, thank you for joining us for this week's episode of The Turn On.
Kenrya: Yes. Next week our guest will be...
Erica: Oh, next week our guest will be Carol Taylor, the fantastic and fabulous editor of the Brown Sugar Series. She has a series of Black erotic books, so, really excited to talk to her and learn more.
Kenrya: Yeah, she really created this genre in a lot of ways.
Kenrya: Yeah. So that'll be dope. Make sure you all come back next week to hear from her.
Erica: Yes. So, this is Erica and Kenrya, two hoes.
Kenrya: Making it clap.
Erica: This episode was produced by us, Erica and Kenrya, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. Every 5 star review that you post on Apple Podcast between now and July 31, 2019 will be entered into a raffle to win a copy of one of the books that we read on the show. We need your help, and we're giving away five books, you just need to post your review, and then email a screenshot of it to email@example.com to enter. And please take a minute to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app, follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod, and Instagram @theturnonpodcast, and find links to books, transcripts, guest info, and other dope shit at TheTurnOnPodcast.com. Peace.
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In Episode 2.5 of The Turn On, we talk to “Push the Button” author Feminista Jones about BDSM, labels and building community.
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information.
Kenrya: Come here, get off.
Kenrya: So today, we're talking to Philadelphia based social worker, feminist writer, public speaker, and community activist Feminista Jones. Feminista is an award-winning blogger and author of Push the Button, which we're reading from today, a poetry collection called "The Secret of Sugar Water," and the newly released "Reclaiming Our Space: How Black Feminists Are Changing The World From The Tweets To The Streets." Feminista's work centers Black American culture, critical race theory, intersectionality, and women's health and wellbeing.
Kenrya: Hey, Feminista.
Feminista: Hello. Thank you for having me.
Kenrya: Thanks for coming on. We're excited to talk to you. I feel like we've been following you and like sending each other stuff that you've tweeted for years.
Feminista: That's dope.
Kenrya: It's cool to have you on.
Erica: Yeah, you're definitely my home girl in my head. So thank you for-
Feminista: Well, now I'm home girl on the mic.
Erica: Thank you so much.
Kenrya: So, first can you tell us what are your preferred pronouns?
Feminista: She and her.
Kenrya: Awesome. Thank you.
Feminista: And yours?
Kenrya: I'm she and her. Erica?
Erica: I'm she and her but I also appreciate all around bad bitch, so if that could be somehow incorporated.
Kenrya: Got it.
Feminista: I'm going to try my best.
Kenrya: Okay. I just read that long, like yes, bad bitch bio, but in one sentence, what do you think of what you do, like if you could sum it all up in one succinct sentence, what is it?
Feminista: I do bad bitch things.
Kenrya: Yes! Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Feminista: You know what, honestly I think at this point in my life I just am somebody who is trying to live out her dreams and help people along the way, if that makes sense.
Kenrya: It does make sense.
Feminista: I've had a lot of questions lately about "Is this what you've always wanted to do?" And for as long as I can remember yes, I've wanted to be a writer and I've also wanted to help people and this is like since I was like six years old, seven years old, and I've been lucky enough or committed enough to be able to do both and be successful at both. So, I think where I am right now, having recently turned 40, I am enjoying the fruits of my labor, being able to do both of those things.
Kenrya: Word. That's what's up. So okay, you're based in Philly now, where are you from originally?
Feminista: I am from New York City, born and raised. I was born in Queens, my mom and I, we moved around a lot when we were in Queens, but I went to public school there for elementary school and then we moved to The Bronx, and I really tell people that The Bronx really made me who I am. Queens was kind of an early introduction to things, particularly on the hip hop side because I always loved all the Queens artists from hip hop, but The Bronx really made me who I am and I lived most of my life in The Bronx. So everything from there, every time, whether I went away to school or college, every time I came back, it was always living somewhere in The Bronx. So I've spent the majority of my life in The Bronx and I definitely am a Bronx girl.
Kenrya: Word. Would you ever go back, like to live for real?
Feminista: I don't want to ever say never but that is not what I have. Living in New York City is no longer my ministry.
Erica: I was just about to say "not your ministry."
Feminista: No, it is ... I had this, and people ask me, why did I leave? And I said I feel like I have given New York all that I can and I have gotten from New York all I can get from it. A lot of that is under the context of being a social worker. I spend pretty much all my career there being a social worker in New York City and in a city that big there's all these different organizations, they're all kind of doing the same work. You're like just kind of drifting around but in Philadelphia where there are a lot of pressing issues, there's the opportunity to kind of be a big fish in a small pond and I felt that I could take a lot of what I had learned as a social worker in New York and bring that to Philadelphia and possibly help work on some of the issues going here.
Kenrya: Word. What made you choose Philly in particular?
Feminista: Well, I went to undergrad here. I went to he University of Pennsylvania for an undergraduate, and when I was here I had done some volunteering in west and north Philly and learned a lot about he issues, and I had friends here that were still here, I dated someone here for a few years, so I've always been closely connected with Philadelphia and so when I was thinking about where I wanted to move, thinking about proximity to my son who's still in New York City, Philadelphia really topped the list, cost of living is lower, fewer people.
But it's a Black city. A lot of people don't talk about Philadelphia in those terms. They always talk about Washington, D.C. is chocolate city but Philly is like 43% Black right now, I think, and we have the highest Black Muslim population, there's so much about this city that is just quintessentially Black and I just love that. It's really hard for me to be in spaces where I'm one of a few or the only one. That really destroys my spirit.
It's funny, funny story, I've been on tour for a few months for the book and I've gone to ... and also my speaking tour, and and I've gone to some really interesting places, and I remember going to Terre Haute, Indiana, to speak at Indiana State, and for the first 24 hours I was there I didn't see a single other Black person.
Feminista: And I was talking with students and professors there, I was like how do you do it? And they're like, "Look, you've got to find your tribe but it's still really taxing." I was like I just can't do that. I can't go a whole day and not see Black people. That's not the life I want.
Erica: And I notice it so much more. I'm originally from St. Louis, Missouri, and moved to D.C. and I've been here since college. And now I'm so ... And I don't think I was as aware of being in such white spaces until you kind of get home and you breathe and you see ... you're so used to seeing so many Black people that you're so much more aware of the absence of them when you're not around them.
Feminista: I was just in St. Louis two weekends ago for a wedding and I had been there, like a few weeks before that, for a speaking engagement. I like St. Louis, I like the people there. The Black folks there were real cool. I really appreciated them.
Erica: It was a good place to grow up but I definitely had to leave and I love my family but I needed a little bit of space.
Feminista: I understand, I understand. I can see that. Yeah. But people were really nice to me there and I say that because that doesn't always happen. So I appreciate St. Louis.
Erica: Oh wow, wow. I'm glad they put their best foot forward for you.
Kenrya: I wonder how being in the city, living in a place that is very intentionally Black, like how much being in that space feeds your work?
Feminista: It feeds it so much. When I first moved here I worked for a university doing anti-poverty policy work and pretty much 99% of the people I worked with were Black, right? So we have the highest poverty rate in the country of any large city, and so it's a serious issue here. So Blackness and poverty are so linked up here, it's kind of ridiculous. Not to say that there isn't a Black middle class or upper class but it's obviously racialized here in many ways. So that definitely informs a lot of my work and particularly with activism and things that I do around the city still, working with women and things like that, that Blackness is always present.
Then as I'm connecting with different people and I'm sure we'll talk about more kink stuff but I've been able to find a very strong kink community here that is all Black people, and that's been really, really helpful, and finding those kind of even underground alternative kind of communities has been really great. So it's given me a lot of inspiration to finish the sequel to "Push the Button," which I've been working on.
Kenrya: Oh good, we were definitely going to ask you about that.
Feminista: No, it's actually been really dope. Hacking away, I cut my nails down, I was like I've got some writing to do. I was like, but definitely feeding in from that ... You know what it is? It's a comfort level. I think when I was in New York City I wasn't comfortable anymore. I was struggling. I was like I shouldn't be struggling. Making as much money as I was making I shouldn't have been struggling, like living paycheck to paycheck.
Kenrya: It's a hard city.
Feminista: I shouldn't have had all the mental health issues and struggles that I have. Not to say that I haven't had them here but in New York it was just a whole different level and then having to go outside and be around so many people all the time, it was just so draining. How do you go home and then be creative and be productive when you're just so drained? So Philadelphia here ...
And then you know, Black folks here are nice. So you walk down the street, Sisters will randomly be like, "Oh girl, I love your skirt. Oh, I love those earrings. Oh, I love that hair." And they'll start a conversation like it's kind of like what people say about the South, you know how that is, but here in Philly that's just how people are, and when they say like brotherly love and sisterly affection, that comes from the Black people here. So I've definitely felt more comfortable, I settled in, I got a house, like I love my home. So definitely feeling it.
Kenrya: Yes, that's dope.
Erica: So, we've been ... I've been following you, like I said, you were my home girl in my mind, so I've heard you talk on other shows about your Dominant/submissive relationships, and so my question to you is how did you realize that one of the hats you'd come to wear was that of a submissive? Like how did that come about? Because I think we all have a bit of that in us but how did you realize this is who I am and what I want to do?
Feminista: Well, it's a funny story because I no longer identify that way because I divested of the patriarchal bullshit, but anyway.
Feminista: There was another show I was talking about that. Listen, I've been in this lifestyle, this kink and BDSM lifestyle for 21 years now. Evolution is going to happen, growth is going to happen. I've always identified as a switch, to be quite honest because I-
Kenrya: Can you tell our listeners who don't know?
Feminista: Oh, sure. A switch is somebody who can function as a submissive type and can also function as a dominant type. For me, it fell along gender lines. Like, I would be dominant with women and I would be submissive with men. And I really had to critique that. Like, as a feminist, I could come up theoretically with all the ways in which it was fine to be a submissive and here's where ... You know, I've written about it, it's not an issue, and I don't have an issue with it, trust me, but what I had to do was really challenge myself and say, "Are you really submissive or do you just engage certain men this way?" Because when I would be out and about in the community I wouldn't be ... I wouldn't bow my head to any of them other dudes, like no, I'm not doing nothing you say, I ain't going to call you no sir, nothing. I was just like yo ...
Then it took a partner being like, "You don't have a submissive bone in your body." We said that, it was during an argument. I was like, "Well, that's actually true," and I started having to deconstruct that. Then what I realized ... And this is something that I actually now do workshops and stuff about, is I had to reconcile enjoying being a bottom for more of the physical things, like I identify as a sadomasochist so I do enjoy receiving pain, but that didn't make me submissive. And that's challenging a lot of the norms and the standards that we have in our community. Like, we equate a bottom with a submissive. And it's like, no, I actually just like the way these things feel and I like having someone else kind of inflict that on me or what have you. There's certain scenarios where I like to be choked, does that mean I'm a submissive? No. It means I like being choked. If I want a man to pay for things, does that make me a submissive? No. It means I like having men pay for shit.
So I had to challenge a lot of what I already believed, and I was like no, you know what, there's part of me that with a particular partner I may curl up like a little girl and do whatever, but that is not my standard or my general way of being. I am actually quite dominant and I would limit it only to women but then I realized, no, I can be dominant with men too and not just in the bed. I found that outside of the bed is when I really got the enjoyment of dominating men.
And so I allowed myself to evolve over the years and fully embrace the fact that I identify as a Dom who happens to be a sadomasochist.
Feminista: Yeah. So after 21 years, that's where I am right now.
Erica: So, just to dig a little deeper into that piece, did you deal with a ... I mean, when you thought for so long, I am this type of person, and then slowly come to realize no, that isn't who I am anymore, or who I ever was, how did you ... what was your thinking, what was your thoughts behind it? Did you feel like you were having some sort of crisis or ... I don't want to say crisis but how did you handle that?
Feminista: Honestly, I think my biggest concern, because I am so well known, because I'm well known in the community and also out, it's like how will people receive this? Like, will they think that I was a fraud or they think I was whatever, and that's why I'm very delicate about how I explain this process and for those who are maybe newer to this lifestyle or newer to kink, letting people know you have permission to change. Like, you may identify one way now and then a few months from now you're like you know what, that doesn't really work for me, and it's okay. Don't let anyone pigeon hole you.
So for me, I think that was probably the biggest concern because people look up to me, and then I wrote this book but then I realized when I started writing the sequel, I started writing the sequel three and a half years ago, believe it or not, and I wanted my primary character to be a Dom, a woman Dom. And I said, "I'm going to explore this." And I actually think through writing that I was like, you know you're writing yourself, right? And I'm like, but how am I writing myself? So it wasn't crisis, it was more like just let the spirit move you-
Kenrya: Get yourself that space, yeah.
Feminista: Get yourself that space, go with what feels good and what feels right, and I had fallen back from the community a bit, I was in a rather tumultuous relationship, and when I ended that I said, you know what? I need to reconnect with my people but I'm going to do it in the most authentic way. So people who had known me in my previous form, they accepted and they have embraced it because again, I've always identified as a switch. So there's always been that there, it's just now I fully embrace it and you'll see more of that with me.
Kenrya: That's awesome.
Feminista: But if you're the right person then you might bring that other part out a little bit, you never know. I'm just open to whatever feels good. Are we fucking right? Is it good? Who cares!
Kenrya: That actually makes me think more broadly just about your career in general, from addressing street harassments, writing erotica to speaking at colleges and advocating women's health, I feel like you do a really good job of being your whole self in public and reflecting all of those pieces of yourself in your work. I'm wondering what the biggest challenges that you face in making space for all the things that you are and all the things that you do.
Feminista: Honestly I think the biggest challenge has been the sex part, because that's how I came on the scene, right? That's how people knew me, from my early, early days, back 2010, 2011, and I really was trying to make this mark as a sex positive Black feminist. And I did. And that's what a lot of people came to know me for. And then I was like, but I do have all these other things that are really important to me too, and since now I have this platform let me start talking about these things too, and I started bringing more of my daily life as a social worker, as an activist online.
I was like, well, I also do this stuff too people, and realizing that social media specifically could be a valuable tool to help me in my day-to-day life. So I was like, I got to bring all of this. And I fell back a bit from the sex stuff as much because I was having my own personal kind of revolution. There's a lot of things ... Not a lot, but there are some things that I wrote or said about six, seven years ago that I wouldn't agree with right now when it comes to feminism and sex and things like that.
I talk about, in the book a bit, "Reclaiming Our Space," how I felt like it was my job to get more men to approve of feminism or to support it and I felt like sex would be the way to reach them. And it was very effective, I'm telling you, to this day I have just as many male fans and supporters as I have women. And in many things, the men support more than women. So it worked.
But then I was like why am I doing that? Why do I care about their feelings like that? Like either you're down with feminism, either you believe that we are equal or you don't. I shouldn't have to sugar coat things, I shouldn't have to spoon-feed it to you, I shouldn't have to make it appealing. And so part of why I fell back from the sex stuff was because I was like I don't want that to be the only reason you believe that women are valuable.
But I didn't fall back completely, it was just kind of like ... but the more public I became, things like that, I was just kind of like, this is risky. It is risky because now I'm out and about and sometimes when you talk about sex people feel entitled to you, you know what I mean? So that was a big thing and anybody listening, I feel like I've never explained this before, so you guys are the first to hear this but I started becoming concerned about my own safety because if I would look at my DMs, if I would look at the emails, all the unsolicited dick pics, all the things, I was just like, this is not what I want for me. And here I am posting where I'm going to be in these different spaces, the last thing I need is somebody who is infatuated with me or has been fantasizing about me to show up and we have a problem. So, that's another reason and one of the major reasons why I fell back from that.
But then in the last couple of years I was like, "yeah, man, I'll shoot you." I'm going to do me, and this is important to me. When we think about things like what's happening with abortion right now, all of that is related to sex and sexuality. So I feel like ... Especially because I retired from social work last year, I said you know what? This is the arena I need to get back into. I need to get back into talking about sex and sex positivity. I need to get back into talking about kink and BDSM, I need to get back into talking about sexual liberation because it is so relevant to what is going on right now in our country and across the world and I feel like I have a strong enough voice for that.
So I've been doing more of that lately and it's been good, it's been feeling good. So I think it all connects. When you are a queer Black feminist woman, it's hard to divest any part of who you are.
Kenrya: Right. That's one of the things we talk about on this show, it's never just sex, right? Everything is sex and, race and, all of these things are interconnected.
Kenrya: You can't leave any of them behind because they literally are you.
Feminista: It's sex and race, sex and gender, sex and class, sex and orientation, sex and religion, all of it is so intertwined, we can't divest. Here's the thing, if we're talking about liberation, like as a theory or a practice, we have to talk about bodily liberation. If your bodies are still in these kinds of theoretical chains, one of the biggest ones being related to sex, we're not getting any other type of liberation. You know what I'm saying?
So, I feel like I have a strong enough voice in this particular space, especially with SESTA and FOSTA stuff happening, like nah man. I think that renewed my vigors, too, like when they started cracking down, when they started cracking down and like you can't put nipples on Instagram and everything got to be family friendly and all the stuff like that, the porn folks in porn and sex workers are getting locked up and in trouble and all kind of ... I was like nah, we got to do something about this.
Erica: Got to come back out.
Feminista: Got to come back out.
Erica: So you talked about how your sexual self evolved over the past 20 plus years. As a mom and mentor, what do you think is the most important thing you want to instill in young Black people that are still trying to figure out their sexual selves and what that looks like?
Feminista: You know, it's funny because I feel the real work starts with their parents and I feel like we need to really get to young people, as young as five years old, maybe even four to really kind of educate them about sex and sexuality. My ex-husband was an adolescent health educator and he developed age-appropriate stuff. They were talking to kindergartners about this kind of stuff and it was working, it was making sense.
We have to get in early because a lot of times parents will pass on their own misguided notions about things and then we've got a whole other generation that's messed up. But I want young people to know that freedom, like personal freedom is about being able to enthusiastically say yes and having your no be respected. I think that that's a fundamental lesson that, as a parent, I have worked on with my son.
Let me tell you something, I tell parents because I do some parenting writing too, I've told parents, "Listen, when your child comes and asks you for a cookie and you say no, and he's like, 'Please, please, please,' and you're like 'No,' and then they're like, 'Oh, I hate you,' and they start screaming and then you give them the cookie, you just taught them about coercion. You've just taught them that all they have to do is push a little harder and they'll get what they want."
A lot of parents are just like, "Wow, I hadn't thought about that." Yeah, that's where it starts, don't even have to talk about sex. You just have to talk about boundaries, autonomy, and respect for other people. Young people have to know that they can explore things and feel free to, while at the same time understanding that it's important to talk to an adult who can give you context. That was an issue with my kid when he first discovered porn, right? He was like seven. I was like, so this is a no. But here's why, here's why. It's like Mommy does not think that this is appropriate for you to look at right now. Not that porn is bad-
Kenrya: Not this is dirty, not that you're bad for watching, yeah.
Feminista: I just don't think that this is appropriate for you to watch right now. Then it happened again a few years later and I was a little more stern, I said, "We talked about this. I do not want you watching this and getting your ideas about sex from this. If you want to talk about sex, talk to me and Daddy, we'll give you some more information." And I think he understood that. I mean, he's 12 now, like I got my first vibrator when I was 14, look I'm not going to hold my kid to some ridiculous standard, but we've raised him to know that if he has any questions he can come to us.
Feminista: We've also raised him very open. I've never once been like, "Is there a girl you like?" I've always asked, "Is there someone you like? Do you have a crush on anyone?" So a couple of weeks ago we were walking and he said, "Mom, you know, I've just got to tell you something." I was like, "What?" He was like, "I think I know that I'm straight." I was like, "Damn." I was like, "Well what does that mean to you?" He's like, "I like girls." And I was like okay, well that's fine. But he's like, "Not that being gay is bad, I just don't like boys."
And it was a conversation. I didn't have to pry or anything. Then he tells me that he likes this Puerto Rican girl and a white girl, and then I was like, "Okay, listen."
Kenrya: Let's have a conversation.
Feminista: "Let's have a conversation right here." I wasn't mad about anything else, I was just like ... I was like ... But do you know what it is? All his closest friends are Black girls. And the way he explains it is he's like, I don't know what's going on with these guys' heads, but girls are just smarter, and I prefer to have them as friends.
Kenrya: Where is the lie?
Feminista: So I was like, I feel you bro, like I get it. So I think that's something for him. I don't know if the girls that he likes being not Black kind of helps him juxtapose things, I don't know. But he does have love for Black girls and always has, so I'm not like mad or anything.
So, yeah, we talk about it, I talk about it, we talk about it all the time, I bring it up, I let him know, "You can talk to me about anything," his sister, I had talked about this publicly, his older sister had a baby as a teenager and she was only 14, and she's 16 now, and so talking to him about that, like what does that mean? Like your "Sister was having sex and she got pregnant and she had a baby very young." He's like, "I ain't doing that." And I was like okay, all right. But it's important to have those conversations.
Kenrya: Yeah. And to have them early. Awesome.
Feminista: Have them early.
Kenrya: So let's talk a bit about Push the Button.
Feminista: Yes, let's talk.
Kenrya: So we were definitely in from the opening line, "I want to see you." I'm wondering where the ... I mean so obviously we talked a bit about how the idea of it, the Dom/sub relationship at the core of it came from where you were at that part of your life, but where did the inspiration for this particular story come from?
Feminista: So the book is almost five years old, and I am blessed to say I get my little Amazon royalties every month, people are still buying it, I'm very happy about that. It came out around the time that 50 Shades of Gray had come out, and that garbage really infuriated me. It infuriated me.
Kenrya: So awful.
Feminista: It was terrible, it was poorly written, it was not about BDSM, it was about abuse, and in the community we were all just what the fuck is this? And I think for me I have this theory, and a lot of people may not agree, but I feel like if you're a good writer you can write anything. I said to myself, you know what, I can do better than this and I can represent for our community and I can represent for Black people in our community because so much of BDSM erotica is just so white. So I said I'll write a short story. My Aries brain, I can go for a short story, anything beyond that ...
Kenrya: Yes, Aries.
Feminista: Yes. I'll be like, all right man, you've got 2000 words, there you go. So I wrote a blog and that was supposed to be it, so chapter one was supposed to be it, and then people were reading it and I got ... the biggest question I got was, "So what happens next?" I was like, "There is no next." I was like, "That's it, what are you talking about?" I just wanted to prove that a story about BDSM with black people could be written better than that 50 Shades crap. But popular demand, the fans were clamoring and so I started releasing a new chapter every holiday.
So it got to the point where people would hit me up, they'd be like, "Yo, July 4th is two weeks, we getting another chapter? Hey, it's Easter, are we getting a chapter, because Easter's coming up. It's National Hotdog Day. Asian Pacific Month, what are we getting here?" It was really funny, but I would, and it held me accountable, I got to thank the fans because Aries in and out, we are over stuff really quick but the fans held me accountable and I just kept writing and developing these characters and developing this story until I got to all but the last chapter and by then my following had almost tripled and I took it off the blog. I said I'm going to make this a book. Why not, right?
And I waited a year, intentionally, to build it up and then by then more than half of my followers had never heard of Push the Button. They'd never seen, they went to my blog, it wasn't there, they'd never heard of it. So when I added the final chapter and released it as a book, the old fans were just like, "Yes, this is it! We love it, "Oh my god, I can't believe you did this, what is going on?" It was really great to see because what was happening was with every chapter I started having people download it so I could track it and I was there, I would have like 2,800, 3,000 downloads in the first [inaudible].
Feminista: Oh dropping it. So I knew there was a fan base there, and I was like, okay, this is going to do numbers. So when I created it, originally it was going to be just an ebook, but I said no, I made a paperback. The version that's out now that people can buy is actually the fourth version, I had to do a lot of editing. I had never done anything like this before, I had never self-published and everything like that.
Kenrya: That's impressive.
Feminista: Thank you. So I went back and I did a lot of editing, I actually changed some sentences and fixed the syntax, a lot of spelling and grammar things and stuff like that, but I cleaned it up. So what you have now is the fourth version and people just loved it. I was being asked to come places to talk about it, to speak about it, and that really helped launched my speaking career. First I was just kind of in kink spaces, but I was recording myself and putting it on YouTube or online and more people were like, "Oh, can you come talk about this? Can you come talk about ..." And it grew from there.
The best thing was I was at Weekend Reunion, and for people that don't know what Weekend Reunion is, it was an annual gathering of people of color in the lifestyle and they asked me to come and sell the book there and I had an elder in the community come up and she was just like, "Thank you so much for this, I've never seen us represented this way. Really appreciate it." That meant a lot to me because as they say, representation matters. Right? You want to see yourself in media, whether it's literature or film, TV, and so I felt like I'd done something special for the community and it went from there. This book has sold thousands and thousands and thousands of copies around the world and it's been a blessing and it's great and I love it and I'm halfway through the sequel.
Erica: So, do you have any tips or resources for our listeners that want to explore kink? I think that often we tend ... If you're not familiar, you tend to think that kink is that white people shit but somebody chokes you out during sex and you're like, "Can I have some more?"
Feminista: Yeah. That's the thing that I guess gets me all the time because people of color, we are very much obviously involved in this. We have huge communities across the world, especially in the United States, we have gatherings, we have all kind of conferences, I'm actually speaking at a conference called the Journey Con this August in Atlanta. We are there, but I think there's also that part of us that likes being underground a bit, and likes being in the margins because it still feels freer. The more mainstream something becomes, the more prying eyes you have and peering eyes, and so when the 50 Shades thing came, all the white mommy bloggers were just like, "Oh my god, I want to be spanked." And I was like, "You don't want me to spank you, child. I will send you right back to Mayberry and you'll never think about this again." You know?
So there was an explosion of our community around that, that was trickled off a bit. I would say folks could go to fetlife.com, F-E-T-L-I-F-E.com, FetLife is like Facebook for kinksters, you can create a profile, you can talk about what you're looking for, tell a little bit about yourself, what you're into, but there's also an events page so you can find events that are happening near you, everything from workshops to demonstrations to munches, what we call munches, and a munch is when you get together with other people in the lifestyle but you're not doing anything kinky, you're just having dinner or lunch or drinks or something, just to get to know people.
You can go to conferences, you can go to play parties, they list parties at the dungeons. For people that don't know what a dungeon is, it's where you go and there's all kinds of apparatuses around and people are engaging in their kink. FetLife I think is a really valuable resource, it can be a mess because there's always going to be some white dude who's going to come be like, "I just want you to sit on my face, I worship the Black Queen"
Kenrya: My face is all screwed up right now.
Feminista: Yeah, no, it should be, because it's gross, and I'll be like, not saying that having a white man ... But whatever, it's just a lot sometimes.
Erica: It's not your thing.
Feminista: Right. You get brothers whose default picture is a picture of their dick, and it's like, I don't need that.
Kenrya: Because dicks are abundant and low in value.
Feminista: They are so abundant and short. So they have an events page but then you also have groups, so you can check out the groups, there's a lot of message boards. Really just kind of learning. The other thing I would recommend for people is to go to workshops. I know in Philadelphia, for example, we have a number of groups and parts of the community where there's always a rope demo going on, there's always a flogging demo, there's always some kind of conversation about what it means to be a person of color in kink. There's always something going on that's either free or low charge that you can just go, and you don't have to participate, you can just sit in the back and listen because I think that the education is really so important, learning from people that have been doing that. And I would say going to munches, like I said, meeting people that are near you, you're a mess but meeting people that are near you.
Kenrya: No, she keeps laughing because ... So she calls my daughter, who is her goddaughter, Munch.
Feminista: Oh God. Thats awkward.
Kenrya: And she's also a child. So every time you say it, she over there giggling because it makes her think.
Erica: But the funny thing is I am Auntie Munch, so like I call her ... Because she was a munchie baby, so I called her Munch and I'm Auntie Munch, and I'm like, now I feel like that title is so fitting for me. However, I need to reevaluate it for her. But yeah. I am drunk Auntie Munch, okay.
Feminista: That's kind of funny. But yes, those are things, that's what we call them, and I think also there are people that maintain ... Facebook has a ton of kink groups, I'm in a couple of them in which people are discussing things all the time. It's one of those things like if you want to know, you need to go seek it out, you need to be proactive about it.
Then some people are not big on being involved in community stuff and that's fine, too. We are in the information age, you can go to Google, anything that you want to learn about related to kink, maybe you and your partner want to just kind of sit down, watch some videos, there's rope tying demos on YouTube, you can find stuff on YouTube, you can find blogs and read and experiment yourselves.
Erica: So we are rapping up but I do have one question, one silly question for you. So, I want to ask you a would you rather question. So, would you rather be a sub to someone with no short-term memory or a sub to someone who can only speak in whispers.
Feminista: Oh my god. Wait.
Erica: Have you watched-
Feminista: So no short-term memory or whispers
Erica: So kind of like Awkward Black Girl that got in the office that can only...
Feminista: Oh my god.
Erica: Like, "Get over here, bitch. Would you like me to speak up?"
Feminista: Oh wow. You know what.
Erica: Or he repeats everything.
Feminista: If I can them a portable microphone or like a bullhorn or something.
Erica: It'd just come out like a really loud whisper like, "HEY. LIE DOWN BITCH."
Feminista: I think actually I'd probably choose the no short-term memory.
Feminista: Because no short-term memory means they have long-term memory so if they don't remember it Monday at 4:55, they'll remember it Tuesday, so I'll be all right.
Erica: But if she or he says, "Go sit down, go get on your knees in front of the couch," and then goes and uses the bathroom and comes back he's like, "But why you on your knees?"
Feminista: I'd be like, "I don't know."
Erica: "I was looking for something on the floor."
Feminista: That's the first thing I thought of, is like, well I wouldn't have to do shit. I wouldn't have to do much of anything. But the if I was truly being a submissive type and really kind of connected with that I would say, "Well, you told me to be on the floor and so here I am." So we'd just kind of ... I feel like I would try a lot throughout the day. "You told me to ..." It'd be like, no, because like can you imagine being in bed, right, and they're getting out the paddle and the flogger and stuff and they put it on the bed and then they go to the bathroom-
Erica: Who's this for?
Feminista: And they come back and they be like, why are you laying there with all that stuff on the bed? When you said you were going to use it. And then they go and they use the paddle and they step away and they come back and use the paddle again, it's like, "You just used that! Like ow, man!" Oh my God. I would choose that, though, that'd be fun. I don't think I could deal with the whispering because eventually it would probably ... It would take me ... I would respect you but it'd take me about 20 minutes to be like, "Can you just shut the fuck up?"
Erica: That'd be it.
Feminista: Don't make me laugh, I just started going back to the gym, my abs hurt. I got so fat, listen, but I started back at the gym now, so when I laugh now that shit hurt.
Kenrya: It's just letting you know that the work is working. You're putting in ...
Feminista: But you know what, I'm going to put this in this group, I'm going to put that same question in this group that I'm in because I want to see the answers.
Erica: You've got to tell us what they say.
Feminista: I will, will. Oh my god. I'm going to be like, so I was recording a podcast about kink and they asked me ... That's hilarious. All right.
Kenrya: This is awesome. So, we're so glad that you were here. See? I didn't even know we was going to laugh so much. This is dope.
Feminista: Thank you very much.
Kenrya: So your newest book is "Reclaiming Our Space: How Black Feminists Are Changing the World from the Tweets to the Streets." Where can people find that book and you and all the rest of your work?
Feminista: So the book is everywhere, you can go to a bookstore, library, online, anywhere, it's in a bunch of countries. People haven't had much issue getting it. A lot of times they've gone into stores and it's been sold out, so you can always request it. Just request it and they'll order it for you. I think it's ... I would actually tell people to order it at the library because libraries are the biggest book buyers so if you go and request it ... One woman told me there was a 30 person wait at her library for the book-
Kenrya: Because they probably had like two copies.
Feminista: Yeah. You should probably order more copies. So you can do that. I am on Twitter, @feministajones, Facebook is Feminista Jones Official, I am on Instagram, @feministajones, and my website is feministajones.com. If you want to know what's going on with me, you can go to my events page, feministajones.com/events and you'll be able to see what's coming up. Yeah.
Kenrya: Awesome. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us before you go on your break.
Feminista: Thank you. I appreciate you all having me. I always do. I love doing this stuff, it's fun.
Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Erica and Kenrya and edited by B'Lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. Every five star review posted on Apple Podcast between now and July 31st, 2019, will be entered into a raffle to win a copy of one of books we read on the show. We're giving away five books, just post your review and email a screenshot to firstname.lastname@example.org to enter. And please subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, follow us on Twitter, @theturnonpod, and Instagram, @theturnonpodcast, and find links to books, transcripts, guest info, and other fun stuff at theturnonpodcast.com. Holla.
The Turn On
The Turn On is a podcast for Black people who want to get off. To open their mines. To learn. To be part of a community. To show that we love and fuck too, and it doesn't have to be political or scandalous or dirty. Unless we want it to be.